A better riveted mail standard, ideas? (now competed w/pics)

[Konstantin the Red]

And it's KALLE OMMER FOR THE RESURRECT this fine American national holiday.

[Tom B.]

I have finally made more progress on this project after a long hiatus.
The entire standard is pieced together but still needs about 150 rings riveted.
I also have the liner partially made and a prototype steel gorget (made from 4130)

If the internet here at my hotel in China will cooperate I will post some photos.

[Tom B.]

Here are the afore mentioned pics now that I am in Hong Kong and able to use the entire internet

[Ernst]

You have to go to China to make mail? (It does take "alone time", doesn't it.)

[Tom B.]

You have to go to China to make mail? (It does take "alone time", doesn't it.)

I have a wife and five kids there is no "alone time" at home

[Ernst]

I do understand.

[Konstantin the Red]

Looks like it came out real nice.

Is that mail on the inside of the collar stiffening too?

[Tom B.]

Looks like it came out real nice.

Is that mail on the inside of the collar stiffening too?

You are seeing the overly tall collar folded over.
Since I mostly made this up from existing pieces of mail, I have left the 6mm flat ring collar band wide. It will be trimmed a bit after I have determined exactly how wide I can tolerate it.

[Ernst]

Usually we see the (leather?) lining overlapping the top with dags or piccadills on the outer edge.
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/3155/2535/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4693/12786/

[Tom B.]

Usually we see the (leather?) lining overlapping the top with dags or piccadills on the outer edge.
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/3155/2535/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4693/12786/

That is my plan.
I have some nice red leather picked out.

[Tom B.]

A few quick pics, in the back view one of my sons is the undersized stand in for me.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Love it. Those hooks look stout; you shaped them out of sheet, it looks like?

[Tom B.]

Love it. Those hooks look stout; you shaped them out of sheet, it looks like?

Thanks.

Hooks are out of 4130 I don't remember the thickness, but it is pretty thin.
I gave them a nice curved cross section for strength.
The hooks had to be pretty small to fit through the 6mm rings.

[Mac]

That looks nice, Tom! The edging is a lovely touch.

Have you considered putting a second buckle where the collar joins the cape? I think that would help to make it keep its shape better in back. It will also make it harder for the bad guys to get their daggers in.

Mac

[Tom B.]

That looks nice, Tom! The edging is a lovely touch.

Have you considered putting a second buckle where the collar joins the cape? I think that would help to make it keep its shape better in back. It will also make it harder for the bad guys to get their daggers in.

Mac

Thanks, Mac
Yes, I have the buckle, strap end and buff leather assembled and ready to do just that.

[Ernst]

Never use one when two will do.

[Mac]

Tom,

The other thing I would do is to move the strap(s) closer to the edge. This will reduce the amount of unsupported mail, and make the closure a bit more secure. Either the strap or the buckle must be located away from an edge in order to porduce an overlap. but the way it is now, there are two widths of unsupported mail; the overlap and the underlap.

While I am thinking of straps.... Do you know of any straps that are sewn on? I don't recall ever seeing any traces of any. Of course, that's exactly what we might expect. If a sewn strap falls off over the centuries, we would never see any evidence of it. Whereas the riveted ones leave souvenirs of their former locations. Maybe I'm just used to thinking in terms of rivets.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Tom,

The other thing I would do is to move the strap(s) closer to the edge. This will reduce the amount of unsupported mail, and make the closure a bit more secure. Either the strap or the buckle must be located away from an edge in order to porduce an overlap. but the way it is now, there are two widths of unsupported mail; the overlap and the underlap.

While I am thinking of straps.... Do you know of any straps that are sewn on? I don't recall ever seeing any traces of any. Of course, that's exactly what we might expect. If a sewn strap falls off over the centuries, we would never see any evidence of it. Whereas the riveted ones leave souvenirs of their former locations. Maybe I'm just used to thinking in terms of rivets.

Mac

I struggled with how to attach the strap and went with sewing basically because it was quicker than making a metal strap attachment. I am getting ready for an event next week and still have lots to get ready. In retrospect I think I will make a couple of decrotave washers and rivet them on.

I really want to make one of those closures that look like hinges.
You see these on the 16th century mail capes / collars and also on some of the late 15th century tapistries. I may do this later.

I also want to go back and put the denser mail, like the collar, on the front center top of the cape.

I agree the strap and buckle are too far from the edges. The standard is a bit big but I hesitate to trim it yet. I have made a first pass at a steel gorget to hide inside but alas I made it too small. The strap and buckle positions were originally chosen to allow me to trim a bit of mail to decrease the overlap. I hesitated to trim without the final gorget to help size.

I guess in the scheme of things it is easy enough add mail back later if needed.
Thanks for the straight honest feedback.

[Tom B.]

Please take a look at my thread about trying to make historically patterned mail items like this commercially available.

Any interest in historically patterned mail products?

Thanks,