Leather vambraces found in Estonia AND Lithuania!

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

This is just awesome!
I am mid process of making a set of limb armour just like this!

Excellent find! Thank you for sharing!

[Maximus Atreus Of Rome]

Anyone know what the measurements are? Aside from the leather's thickness, caught that one. Are they long enough to be Bazubonds?

[Kilkenny]

LOL, Danish and German are close enough that I can usually get a clue about the subject matter. Google translate is my friend after that. Provided I know enough about the subject to fill in the syntax snafus I tend to do okay and in this case I do know the subject pretty well. Occasionally I have to go from language X to German because the sentence structure is more compatible for the translating program. It just takes me a little longer to read is all.

If there is enough interesting material in the sections dealing with pottery for me to want to "keep" it for my archives, I'll cut and paste those pieces into a document and post them.

Bjorn

Danish? I thought the article by Ain Maesalu was in Finnish?

Either way, I can't read it

Does seem to be some very cool stuff coming up lately.

[Swamp Stick]

LOL, Danish and German are close enough that I can usually get a clue about the subject matter. Google translate is my friend after that. Provided I know enough about the subject to fill in the syntax snafus I tend to do okay and in this case I do know the subject pretty well. Occasionally I have to go from language X to German because the sentence structure is more compatible for the translating program. It just takes me a little longer to read is all.

If there is enough interesting material in the sections dealing with pottery for me to want to "keep" it for my archives, I'll cut and paste those pieces into a document and post them.

Bjorn

Danish? I thought the article by Ain Maesalu was in Finnish?

Either way, I can't read it

Google thought it was Danish, I must admit thinking it did not look like Danish for a moment but then got distracted so I may well have misspoken. Still, I caught just enough for me to go "oooh!". The PDF is still open waiting fro me to do cut and paste for the section I want to read.

Bjorn

Bjorn

Does seem to be some very cool stuff coming up lately.

[Tomburr]

So it seems to me that the iron strips were on the same rows as the rivets. Is the general consensus that the strips were mounted on the exterior side of the vambraces, and thus visible while worn?

I know this is speculation, but really there are only so many possibilities of how these were constructed.

[James B.]

The other part of that is the metal strips are on every other row of rivets.

[Tomburr]

Cool. Does it say as much in the article? I may have missed that the first time through.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

So it seems to me that the iron strips were on the same rows as the rivets. Is the general consensus that the strips were mounted on the exterior side of the vambraces, and thus visible while worn?

Yes, at least with these examples.

[Glaukos the Athenian]

And the race starts for the first AA armorer to make a set for the CoTT where they would be close enough to pass...

[RandallMoffett]

Wow this is really cool.

This is a great find for the arms and armour community. It really does give a good idea of the design and shape these things had. Interesting the plates seem to be on the inside. I wonder if the alternating row of rivets was to make the rows looks more constant or if to hold a fabric cover over it. That said it seems likely they would have found traces of fabric under the rivet heads with such detailed restoration and examination.

It is a shame that we have so little idea of if it was hardened by man hundreds of years ago or by its 600 year repose in the ground. The author seems to assume it was hardened but I wish there was a way of really knowing. I was doing some work in conservation years ago and was told that there is no way to tell with objects in this condition and of this age if they were initially hardened or hardened over time. Any one know any more on this? Does this process really leave no remaining traces?

Will have to copy this as it is a great find for our understanding of this.

RPM

[Kilkenny]

And the race starts for the first AA armorer to make a set for the CoTT where they would be close enough to pass...

Did a set for Stephen of Forth Castle a while back. Honestly, there have been a good number of very similar pieces made by modern armourers based on the imagery available.

It's nice that a set like this has finally been found to quiet some of those who have persistently held that the interpretations involving leather were baseless - because no surviving examples were known.

One question that I don't find an answer to in either the photos (not quite enough detail) or the text (can't read the language) is whether they might have been alternating the splints, so that each row of rivets had its own splint, but some were on the outside of the leather and some on the inside. If they were not doing that, I don't really understand putting the extra rivets into the piece...

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Wow this is really cool.

This is a great find for the arms and armour community. It really does give a good idea of the design and shape these things had. Interesting the plates seem to be on the inside. I wonder if the alternating row of rivets was to make the rows looks more constant or if to hold a fabric cover over it. That said it seems likely they would have found traces of fabric under the rivet heads with such detailed restoration and examination.

RPM

Look again, they are on the outside, not the inside.

I don't see any evidence of the strips being on the inside. On the outside, you see bands of corrosion between the rivet heads, making it difficult to even see some of the heads, and this appears on alternating rows of rivets, as do the grooves in the leather from where the strips pressed into it. On the inside, you see only areas of corrosion surrounding the rivet butts, not in bands linking one rivet to the next.

[James B.]

One question that I don't find an answer to in either the photos (not quite enough detail) or the text (can't read the language) is whether they might have been alternating the splints, so that each row of rivets had its own splint, but some were on the outside of the leather and some on the inside.

The rivets look flush with the leather on the inside, I don't see any evidence to suggest you could fit a splint in there.

[Kilkenny]

James and Alcyoneus

You're both drawing more conclusions from the photos than I am comfortable with. It's entirely possible that you're both correct, but I can't see enough in the photo provided to reach a conclusion one way or another.

[James B.]

If you look at the linked PDF the photo is larger and you can blow it up in a PDF.

[Kilkenny]

If you look at the linked PDF the photo is larger and you can blow it up in a PDF.

And I still can't see sufficient detail to let me draw a firm conclusion about the splinting pattern

I am curious about many things shown in these. Like; the elbow shape which is extremely reminiscent of bazubands; the small reinforcement visible along the top edge of the elbow area; the apparent lack of rivets for the straps (possible signs of stitching); the fact that there is at least one odd gap in the lines of rivets that does not appear to be due to a lost rivet, but to not having ever had a rivet there.

Really cool find, and I would love to get a detailed set of pictures and description - in English - from someone who understood armour. Or even better, a chance to examine them for myself. But I know that last ain't happening

[James B.]

You and I are looking at the same details.

[Kilkenny]

You and I are looking at the same details.

Really? I hadn't figured that out. I thought you had a supersecret decoder ring that was letting you see in some ultra high detail uv spectrum or something.

James - of course we're looking at the same picture, with the same information.

You're just willing to reach conclusions from what you see that I am not prepared to join in based on what is available.

I think I've been pretty clear in stating that. I'm not saying that any of the conclusions others have expressed are wrong - just that I don't see enough to let me form conclusions at the level some others are...

[James B.]

What I mean is that I wondered the same things about the straps, the elbow, ect

[Kilkenny]

What I mean is that I wondered the same things about the straps, the elbow, ect

gotcha. sorry for the snark.

Really great finds, loads of fun!

[Tomburr]

Awesome find, but, like Gavin, I've now got more questions than answers.

[Effingham]

I just have to say how freaking cool this find is. Dang.

Makes me really want to see them live -- or at least in large, high-res, color photos.

[Raymund]

Here's a google translation of the text from the .pdf for what its worth.
Iv'e edited it a bit to make it somewhat more readable.

2.3.2. Leather forearm protectors
One waste bin (JK1) were two strips of iron and leather reinforced rivet lines practically
a cubit arm protection remained healthy, A115: 1209, 1265 (Annex 3: 9). Forearm protectors were
compressed. Right hand guard was stuck into the left hand. Leather is well preserved,
side of the elbow can be observed in some of the damage.
Tartu arm armor is probably made ​​of horse leather thicker ridge called cuir Bouillon
(boiled leather) technique. Hand guards, they were in accordance with the shape of 5-6 mm from each other in four rows
located away from the round-headed, from 7-8 mm in diameter rivet, which were located 12 to 19 per row.
The tread impact resistance increased from 42 to 45 mm apart from each other way round on top of
attached with rivets of about 2 mm and 7-8 mm wide steel bands, which were located
hand protectors are alternating rows. These straight lines, and rolled the last rivets
also confirmed the band edge. Iron rivets were fixed to the belt buckles and heels.
Hand guard is performed maximum length was 25.5 cm, width 27 cm, and near the elbow
19 cm width of the wrist position (Mäesalu et al, 2008, 31-32).
Tartu forearm protectors is rarely the case, because there is nowhere to similar parts leather armour
found anywhere else in Europe. Ain Mäesalu dates these to late 14 century or beginning of the 15th century
(2008, 28-29).

[Kilkenny]

Awesome find, but, like Gavin, I've now got more questions than answers.

I wouldn't say I have more questions than answers I've got the biggest question answered - splinted lea splints other is NOT just a theoretical interpretation of artistic representations anymore. We have surviving examples. Now, there are details to address - what kind of leather to use (horse hide makes sense to me, but would it be the choice for the job or just an option based on availability - the article says the one set is possibly horse leather but has it actually been tested to determine the source animal? Splints - inside and out? Outside only and rows of rivets in gaps between the splints?
Inside only?

I think there are good arguments to be made for each of those approaches to the splinting, and artwork that suggests it.

How thick should the leather be? Here we've finally got some examples to give us a sense of whether the leather is there just to hold the steel, or if the steel is there to reinforce the leather.

Fun stuff. I'm contemplating etched splints and tooled leather. So many ways to go;)

[Baron Alcyoneus]

But etched splints would be wrong. Armor isn't etched until almost 1500.

But it is probably quicker than engraving!

[Kilkenny]

But etched splints would be wrong. Armor isn't etched until almost 1500.

But it is probably quicker than engraving!

Not historically accurate is not the same thing as "wrong"

I don't try to make forgeries. I try to make pieces inspired by historical examples. Not replica. Besides, I can do etching much more reasonably and successfully than I can do engraving

[Vitus von Atzinger]

I don't get it- there are two pairs that have recently been found? Or are we talking about the old photos of the ones found in the sea chest as well?

[Mac]

Vitus,

The vambraces in the chest are another (earlier) find. In our excitement about the Estonian find, everyone has forgotten about them....

http://beeldbank.cultureelerfgoed.nl/al ... ondst+1937

Here is where we discussed the find viewtopic.php?f=4&t=136976&hilit=vambra ... ther+chest



Mac

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Gotcha, boss.

[Kilkenny]

Vitus,

The vambraces in the chest are another (earlier) find. In our excitement about the Estonian find, everyone has forgotten about them....

http://beeldbank.cultureelerfgoed.nl/al ... ondst+1937

Here is where we discussed the find viewtopic.php?f=4&t=136976&hilit=vambra ... ther+chest



Mac

ah.. right you are. And the good Dr. Talbot apparently has several additional examples to share with us when his second volume comes out

[Vitus von Atzinger]

DAMN YOU Talbot.

[Dan G]

About Estonia... you probably haven't heard that 2008 summer a massive pre-viking war grave was found in Saaremaa? Yup, seems that locals beated up some raiding scandinavians, maybe it was swedish king Ingvar...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salme_ships

http://salmepaat.blogspot.com

(the blogspot link contains info about the smaller ship only)

[James B.]

The vambraces in the chest are another (earlier) find. In our excitement about the Estonian find, everyone has forgotten about them...

I didn't; I stored the information on both together

[Mikael]

It is in Estonian so Danish or German are of no avail. Finnish is of some help.
The thing about vambraces is in page 27.
The contents of first paragraph are paraphrased in the text of the original post.
Second paragraph tells that these were probably made with cuirboulli technique.
Both had in four rows of iron rivets of 7-8 mm diameter with distance between them 5-6 mm and 12- 19 rivets in each row.
The protection was increased by 5 iron strips spaced 42-45 mm apart, riveted on top of the thing, about 2 mm thick and 7-8 mm wide.
Something between is unclear to me, my guess is that the buckles and their leather used the last rivets of iron strips.
Length of armguard 25,5 cm. width at elbow 27 cm and at wrist 19cm.

And since I do not actually know Estonian, but Finnish this is very rough translation and may contain very basic errors.
(And coming through link I did not see the google gibberish here between.)

[Digr-Jokul]

There's just this awful part of me that imagines a scenario where a young apprentice armorer shows his teacher his "new" way of making a vambrace, at which point he's told to strip the metal and throw it in the latrine because it's shit. Centuries later...