Leather vambraces found in Estonia AND Lithuania!

[Effingham]

Something I'm interested by, and no one has mentioned, is the apparent "heart-shape" to the top of the vambrace -- like it is shy of actually covering or pointing to the elbow.

I find that an interesting design.

[Russ Mitchell]

Effingham: if the metal strip on one side was riveted to the opposite side of the "heart," then it's an enclosed vambrace. That's how I interpret it, since I'm not seeing any evidence of a similar strip on the other side. Another possible option is a rerebrace connecting at the elbow (as one sees in Transylvanian art, see the Karacsonyfalvai wallpaintings posts I've made).

[Kilkenny]

Something I'm interested by, and no one has mentioned, is the apparent "heart-shape" to the top of the vambrace -- like it is shy of actually covering or pointing to the elbow.

I find that an interesting design.

It's what makes many of us think of bazubands when we look at these pieces.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

The pattern isn't very different than the pattern for the forearm on the Charles du Blois pourpoint...

[mephit]

Personally, I don't think they're bazubands, but it's just my opinion. Remember that the original article mentions fungous and bacterial damage (i.e. rot) at the elbow. Looking at the photo in the PDF, the "heart-shaped" top looks to me to be that rot. It's plausible to me that these wound up almost entirely covered in high-ammonia waste water which protected the leather, with only the top corner of the elbows sticking out into the air, allowing bacterial growth and eating away at the leather there. But this is just speculation.

[mephit]

And here's an interesting link I just found on the thread "14th Century Seinsheim armor questions?" over in Historical Research. Effigy of Günther von Schwarzburg, died 1349. Check out the arm defenses. Looks almost identical.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... 749/large/

(Thanks Galvyn Lockhart for posting this in the original thread!)

[Galfrid atte grene]

Plenty of sculpture found in Germany features bazuband-like arm protection.

[Effingham]

Something I'm interested by, and no one has mentioned, is the apparent "heart-shape" to the top of the vambrace -- like it is shy of actually covering or pointing to the elbow.

I find that an interesting design.

It's what makes many of us think of bazubands when we look at these pieces.

That's kinda what I was thinking. I wish we knew the "size" of the guy it was made for so we'd know exactly how it fitted him, and where it sat. That's the only frustrating... er, ONE of the frustrating... parts about dealing with artefacts with no iconographic evidence.

Oh, and I like the observation about the ChuckyBlois garment, too.

Rot is a possibility, of course, but lacking better photos and a closer examination, we just don't know. Sigh.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

The parts that have disintegrated are mostly the metal ones, not the leather. The edges of the leather are pretty clean and are not uneven, they end at the edge of the metal strips around the elbow.

[mephit]

Plenty of sculpture found in Germany features bazuband-like arm protection.

Oh, indeed! I'm not claiming such things didn't exist in Germany. I just don't see it here. Since the reinforcements are iron, it's not surprising to me that the strip visible on the one elbow stops where the leather stops. If the v-shaped opening is rot, the metal would have decayed as well. This is purely subjective on my part, but the proportions don't look right to me for bazubands, either. Too short for the width. (with caveats, of course. No way to know the proportions of the original wearer) Combine that with sculptural evidence closely matching these in shape that are obviously vambraces and I just feel it unlikely these particular pieces are bazuband-type armour. But again, it's my interpretation based on the single look we've gotten. I don't think anything definitive can be said either way.

[mephit]

The parts that have disintegrated are mostly the metal ones, not the leather. The edges of the leather are pretty clean and are not uneven, they end at the edge of the metal strips around the elbow.

But the original article specifically states there is some loss to the leather at the elbow of at least one of the pieces, though it doesn't say how much. To my eye, the edges of the leather in those V shapes don't look particularly clean, but even in the PDF there's not enough detail in that photo set to be sure.

Does anyone who speaks Lithuanian have the ability to contact the author of this article and see if there are any other photos of this piece?

[Galfrid atte grene]

I wish we knew the "size" of the guy it was made for so we'd know exactly how it fitted him, and where it sat. That's the only frustrating... er, ONE of the frustrating... parts about dealing with artefacts with no iconographic evidence.

Well, there is plenty of iconographic evidence for armour of this nature. The only ambiguity is the edge near the elbow. That edge is either hidden by an elbow cop, wraps around the elbow as a bazuband, or is hidden by a mail sleeve.

[Kilkenny]

And here's an interesting link I just found on the thread "14th Century Seinsheim armor questions?" over in Historical Research. Effigy of Günther von Schwarzburg, died 1349. Check out the arm defenses. Looks almost identical.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... 749/large/

(Thanks Galvyn Lockhart for posting this in the original thread!)

You do realize that the part of the armour that is being discussed is completely obscured by the elbow cops in the effigy you referenced, right ?

Consider this - the photos of the surviving pieces show something that pretty clearly has a V-notch at the elbow end of each piece. Pull those edges together and you definitely get something that cups a bit and is in that sense similar to a bazuband, rather than ending in the sort of open cone we think of as "typical" for a vambrace.

Whether or not the edges of those V-notches have rotted a bit, I think it's still pretty clear that the pieces have a notch there. Pull that notch closed and you get a cup effect.

Were the gap simply filled in with "missing" leather (assuming that both pieces had rotted away in the same manner..............), perhaps you wind up with something more "typical" for a vambrace top end. Odds that both pieces of leather rotted so that the same section disappeared on each?

More likely, imo, that the notches are a design feature and in their original fully functional state the edges were pulled closed

[mephit]

You do realize that the part of the armour that is being discussed is completely obscured by the elbow cops in the effigy you referenced, right ?

Certainly. Got any evidence of anyone wearing bazubands under cops?

Consider this - the photos of the surviving pieces show something that pretty clearly has a V-notch at the elbow end of each piece. Pull those edges together and you definitely get something that cups a bit and is in that sense similar to a bazuband, rather than ending in the sort of open cone we think of as "typical" for a vambrace.

Whether or not the edges of those V-notches have rotted a bit, I think it's still pretty clear that the pieces have a notch there. Pull that notch closed and you get a cup effect.

Were the gap simply filled in with "missing" leather (assuming that both pieces had rotted away in the same manner..............), perhaps you wind up with something more "typical" for a vambrace top end. Odds that both pieces of leather rotted so that the same section disappeared on each?

More likely, imo, that the notches are a design feature and in their original fully functional state the edges were pulled closed

It's stated in the article that the two pieces were put one inside the other. It also says there was fungous and bacterial growth at the elbow on both pieces but nowhere else. This means to me that the right was put inside the left in such a way that the elbows coincided in position. So no, it doesn't seem that odd to me that the damage would be in the same place on both. The only other thing is that the V shape on the more tightly curled one (which I'm assuming was the one inside) looks a little smaller than the one on the less curled piece. That also makes me think it's damage rather than original shape. But again, with these photos it's impossible for me to be sure. I could be wrong. They could indeed be bazuband-type elbows.

[James B.]

It is hard to say; to me it looks as if the shape was molded on a form into that shape and if that is the case there would be no need to cut the elbow area and sew it to shape. There is a huge chunk missing there on both pieces so it is hard to say wither way and it clearly states the whole thing was flat when found.

There is a similar arm piece mentioned in Purses in Pieces, being at work I cannot look at it at the moment, how was it constructed at the elbow?

[Kilkenny]

You do realize that the part of the armour that is being discussed is completely obscured by the elbow cops in the effigy you referenced, right ?

Certainly. Got any evidence of anyone wearing bazubands under cops?

Sure, you posted the link. Neither of us can prove what is under the elbow cops in that image, so instead of you assuming you're right and demanding I prove my position, why don't you prove yours?

It's about keeping an open mind to the possibilities, rather than eliminating some because they don't fit preconceptions.

If you'll see it when you believe it, what do you suppose the chances are that you will ever see it?

And lets stop talking about bazubands, because what we're discussing here is a similar shape, not a bazuband. As far as I am aware, there has not been a finding of a single leather vambrace with elbow cop in place. We know how the steel arm harness worked, for a good part, due to surviving examples. When looking at how leather harness worked, we're stuck with extrapolating from art (where people often can't even agree that we're looking at a representation of leather), from steel harness (that is not necessarily representative of how leather harness would work) and from incomplete and infrequent surviving examples like these.

It is entirely possible that every leather vambrace ever made to wear with an elbow cop was designed to have the vambrace run right up under the cop. We just don't know.

[Effingham]

It is entirely possible that every leather vambrace ever made to wear with an elbow cop was designed to have the vambrace run right up under the cop. We just don't know.

This is kinda where I am on this.

I'm wondering if the "cut out" section was to allow it to butt up against the cop comfortably, rather than slide UNDER it.

[Russ Mitchell]

Or whether it connected directly to a rerebrace w/o using a cop at all.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

It is entirely possible that every leather vambrace ever made to wear with an elbow cop was designed to have the vambrace run right up under the cop. We just don't know.

The ones fished out of the sea end like normal vambraces.

[Sean Powell]

Let me propose something else. Let us assume that this was a vambrace and not a bazuband. Also let us assume that it was pointed to the elbow cop with laces that have torn out in the 'heart shaped' region. (I have not had the chance to reviee E&B.com for examples showing the lacing points). Let us further assume that you had worn your bazubands to the extent where the arming point had torn through the leather. Would you:

Carefully pick the valuable steel out of the leather to give to the blacksmith for nails?
Burn the leather away (with the stink of burning leather) to recover the steel?
Say screw this, I make enough to afford full cased vambraces now anyway and pitched the damaged vambraces in the WC?

I have jack-all for evidence to support this position but my gut tells me that vambraces pointed to a cop with the lacing holes torn out is one of many possible interpretations.

My gut also tells me that there may be fabric remnants between the steel and the leather, possibly even a silk velvet... but damned if I could prove that either.

Feel free to continue the speculation.
Sean

[Mac]

Over on the Armsandarmourforum, there are some pictures of an effigy with vambraces remarkably like these..... http://www.armsandarmourforum.com/forum ... entry13766

It is well worth the look.

Mac

[Andeerz]

Damn... I need to wait for the AAF to accept my account creation. Oh wells.

Anyway... I am actually starting to think that it might be something like what is seen in that Hungarian painting Russ mentioned earlier... but I sort of agree with James B. If they were able to mold it in as they did, why would they bother having flaps to sew up to conform with the elbow instead of just molding the leather to the elbow?

I do believe that the lobed look of the vambraces towards the elbow is part of the design and not due to leather degradation (though the degradation may have exaggerated how far the separation between the lobes goes). Perhaps the design is there to accommodate a rebrace of weird design or something. Or, perhaps the design is meant to accommodate an elbow cop that points under the vambrace... Then again, I don't see how that would work...

The idea I like best is that maybe the vambrace is actually long enough to almost touch at the elbow with the dip between the lobes when the arm is bent, and that the lobes sort of provide a bit of extra coverage.

I dunno...

[Andeerz]

Oh, wait. The effigy Mac is talking about pretty much solves the dilemma in my opinion...

[Effingham]

Same here. Wow. It could be twin vambraces.

[Mac]

I got permission from Andreas Petitjean to post some of his pictures here. The effigy is of Günter The Xxv Von Schwarzburg.

This first one gives a good overall impression of the vambrace.



Here you can see that there an arming point keeping the vambrace from sliding down. It is at the top of the vambrace, right in the center. Do not confuse it with the point that secures the bottom of the rerbrace.



This view shows one of the buckles that close the vambrace. Note; that it is toward the medial aspect of the arm, like the Estonian vambraces. We must be grateful to the sculptor for taking the time to show this detail which he might not have bothered with.



There are more pics of this beautiful effigy over on the "A and A F" http://www.armsandarmourforum.com/forum ... entry13753 These are just the ones that best show the vambrace.

Mac

[Theo]

Is he wearing a cape on his shoulders or are those large, one piece spaulders that come to a sharp point?

[Gerhard von Liebau]

He's wearing a cape. And damn, nice spot, Mac! Those do look extremely similar.

-Gerhard

[Andeerz]

I SO want to make those... But I wonder: how are the splints secured that are depicted in the effigy? Perhaps the rivet heads were smoothed down flush with the plates... And the way the splints curve up and border the vambrace on the elbow... wow. Does the same thing seem to happen in the extant example of the OP? I see what appears to be some sort of edging at the upper edge of the vambrace... is it metal or leather?

[Baron Alcyoneus]

It is metal.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Which Gunther is this?

[James B.]

Bumping this thread up. Looks like Chris Dobson made a copy from the original for the museum that owns it. It is a sandwich of leather with strips of metal inside where it looks blank on the outside to form a full circle of metal.

http://www.masterarmourer.com/vambrace.html

[Signo]

WOW!

[Boner]

Is it me or did I miss the time period? Was it around 1360 or were they comparing it with other finds from that time?

[James B.]

It is 14th century

[Otto von Teich]

Wow, great finds! In remarkable condition to boot!