The Armour Archive

My 2012 new year's resolution was to focus on improved details instead of grand but otherwise useless items with which to improve my kit. As such, I'm currently collecting research for a number of seemingly simple projects. Among these projects will be a pair or two of bifurcated gloves, but I may have reached the limits of my research-fu.

I'm interested in the ones used for non military purposes... such as those used for farming or falconry. I've been able to find a great number of books on leather work and glove construction, some paintings with good detail, and enough examples to comfortably place them in my time frame. What I haven't been able to find are any surviving examples or details on their construction.

When it finally dawned on me.... all of those bifurcated gauntlets probably had some sort of mit inside. So I searched the archive, but found only 1 thread that helped my search. I have messaged Mac, and I'm aware that the Met may have a few... any other ideas?

Does anyone know of examples I could explore online, or any books that would give detailed information on these? I am particularly interested in the construction.

As always, your assistance is greatly appreciated.
A

edited for poor grammar, spelling, and stupidity... i should go to bed now

The Luttrell Psalter has an example of bifurcated gloves. It's a 14th C. example. look on page 20 of the "turning the pages" example for the psalter http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredte ... books.html

I made a couple sets a few years back, probably still have the patterns somewhere. Let me know if you're interested in a copy of it.

Master Johann Blau made a few sets with hair-on sheepskin backs as gauntlet liners, seemed to work well.

R

knotwolf wrote:I made a couple sets a few years back, probably still have the patterns somewhere. Let me know if you're interested in a copy of it.

Master Johann Blau made a few sets with hair-on sheepskin backs as gauntlet liners, seemed to work well.

R

That would be brilliant!
I've tried a few different mock ups so far to try different fits, and seeing a different interpretation would certainly be valuable.

May I ask, did you choose to add a fourchette between the finger split? I haven't been able to document it, but adding it seems to improve the fit drastically for me.

Back in '97 I made some prototype gloves. I was never sufficiently satisfied with any of them to move on to making any rights. The first picture shows the whole fleet, laid out on top of my light table.


Here are a couple of pics of the first one I made,(2/10/97) along with its templates. The cuff is too short, and the palm is a bit tight, and I did not like the shape of the finger tips.




Subsequent gloves were an effort to fix the things I thought wrong with the first. In addition to the other things, I changed to a chevron shaped fourchette to make the make the fit more elegant., This one is the last in the series of split mittens (2/21/97).





Unfortunately, many of the changes I made were to try to move the seam of the thumb. In retrospect, this was wrong headed. The resulting thumb template and the shape of the triangular gusset in the palm diverge from what little we know about medieval gloves. The thumb in the first one, is probably closer to what I should have been trying to achieve. When next I pick this project up again, I will revert back to the first thumb; making some changes to the tip, but otherwise keeping it about the same.

Mac

knotwolf wrote:I made a couple sets a few years back, probably still have the patterns somewhere. Let me know if you're interested in a copy of it.

Knotwolf,

I look forward to seeing what you made.

knotwolf wrote: Master Johann Blau made a few sets with hair-on sheepskin backs as gauntlet liners, seemed to work well.

R

Johan Blau!?! I have not seen him in years! Please give him my regards.

Mac

Mac,
I had not considered the thumb seem, I've been so fixated on the darn fourchette.
Did you find a tighter finger comfortable, or do you have long fingers? I seem to be having better success in my mockups with a more roomy finger style.

I thank you again for the information.

Avitoria_vidua wrote:Mac,
I had not considered the thumb seem, I've been so fixated on the darn fourchette.
Did you find a tighter finger comfortable, or do you have long fingers? I seem to be having better success in my mockups with a more roomy finger style.

I thank you again for the information.

The fingers look long because the gloves are not at all loose, and the use of fourchettes let the "crotch" of the fingers be very deep and closely fitted. Also, the stretchiness of deerskin allows them to be tighter than they could be with (say) cowhide. They are not at all uncomfortable.
As you can see from the pictures, my (left) hand is pretty normal in proportion.

Mac

Hey Mac,
I was playing around with the construction of these as well.
I modified a glove pattern that I have been using for gauntlet gloves, but my thumb pattern is different, in that I dont have the triangular bit on the thumb. Do you sew the triangle in to the thumbs joining seam sort of creating a gore?

If there was any way I could get a copy of the pattern I would appreciate it. Of course any pair I made, you would have full credit as the patterner.

cheers!

Luthold,

The triangular bit is very characteristic of medieval gloves. It is a sort of gusset, which adds significantly to the grace of the transition from the palm to the thumb. As you have deduced, it gets incorporated into the seam which closes the thumb.

Here are some pics of my first prototype (2/10/97) , showing how the triangular gusset works. Please ignore the crappy leather and the erratic stitching. I am choosing to illustrate this one, rather than one of the nicer looking later prototypes, because (as I said above) I think I went in a wrong direction with the thumbs, and the first one is really the best thumb of the series.





I would be pleased to post patterns here for you, or any one else to use. What I will do is this. I will make up a new pattern based on what I have learned from the others. It will be untested, but it will certainly produce wearable gloves, and serve as the jumping off point for your next modification.

I have never posted any patterns before, so someone will have to tell me what is the best, or the customary way to do that. How do folks handle the scale issues?

Mac

Mac,
thank you for the reply. The illustrated pair makes it easier to see what was happening with the thumb root. I am curious it it was done in period that way for more mobility or what. The pattern that I have worked form the past is I think a modification of period and modern. The thumb is different but the glove is made from two halves and one of the seams forms the thumb hole.

I have never posted any pattern or line art either. Hopefully someone following the thread has a clue.

thanks again,
Luthold

Between the info I've been collecting and the details Mac so graciously shared with me, I now feel confident enough to attempt this project.

I'll post pictures of my attempts as they're completed... hopefully starting tomorrow.

Mac is the man. He and I talked about this last year and since then I have seen several examples just like he shows.

Yesterday I carefully considered where I should go with my split mitten design. The attached picture shows the result. It is not a strict lineal descendant of the series, but a sort of remix of some of the strongest features from my earlier attempts. They are sized to fit me, and I am on the small side of average for a man. The cuffs are a bit longer and fuller than any of the previous prototypes. If I were about to make a pair of gloves tomorrow, I would use this template. I do not guarantee that it is "perfect", but I feel sure that it would produce a usable pair.

I have provided some labeled dots to show where the important alignment are. (A goes to A' etc.) The fourchettes are shown approximately the correct shape. The modern practice is to cut them out as rectangles; trimming them to their final, tapered shape once they are sewn to the palms. That's what I generally do, but there is probably no harm in cutting them to their final shape first.

I strongly recommend using a supple, stretchy leather like dear skin or goat skin. If you tell your leather supplier that you are making gloves he will be able to point you toward something "glovey". The real ones I have seen appear to be chamois.

I realize that this is not the most convenient way to provide templates, but it's my best idea. If someone has a better way of presenting these templates, I would be pleased to here it.

If anyone has any questions about the templates, I will do my best to answer them.

Mac, can you put two rulers in the photo? One horizontal and one vertical? If you do that or even better put one on each of the four sides of the photo and email it to me, I can make it into a scalable line-art PDF in a couple of hours. The rulers on every side would allow me to adjust for any distortion that the photo has. It would be a format that prints cleanly and can be scaled pretty easily as well. People would still have to do some tweaking, but it would be a good starting point for them.

As for posting, I can email the resulting artwork back to you and you can post in on your site if you'd like. I don't have anywhere to permanently post anything online. I suppose it could be added to the AA Pattern Archive, too, if that's still taking submissions.

Oh, another thing you can do to minimize distortion in the photo is to lay out the pattern on the floor, keep the camera well up above the pattern pieces (rest your arms on the back of a step-ladder or stand over the pieces with the camera at head-height. That kind of thing), then zoom in on the patterns to frame them. This will cut down on the spherical distortion you see around the edges of the photo above. Won't totally remove them but it will help. Basically, you're creating a quick-n-dirty copy stand.

Feel free to PM me if you want to go this route.

Oh, and you probably won't remember this, but about 4 years ago, you made custom crowned A pins as favors for my (now) wife's and my medieval wedding. They were beautifully made and we still wear the ones we kept for ourselves. Thanks!

Mephit,

I was thinking that I might re-shoot those pics with a 1" by 1" grid drawn over the pieces. Then folks could simply redraw the pattern on their own grid, square by square. That's a bit tedious, but it is certainly accurate enough.

mephit wrote:

Oh, and you probably won't remember this, but about 4 years ago, you made custom crowned A pins as favors for my (now) wife's and my medieval wedding. They were beautifully made and we still wear the ones we kept for ourselves. Thanks!

Marianne cut that mold, but I certainly remember the project. I am glad you liked it!

Mac

That's kind of what I'm proposing to do. I'd set up a 1" x 1" grid in Photoshop and manipulate the photo until the rulers match that grid so I know there's a minimum of distortion, then take the manipulated photo and draw a scalable pattern from it in Illustrator. A 1" x 1" grid on the pieces works too, but you might have trouble getting a grid on the fourchette patterns since they're so narrow. Perhaps just put them on top of a sheet of grid paper?

Here is the split mitten pattern, drawn on a 1" grid. I'm sorry about the dark spots...they seem to be *in* my camera.

Mac

Mac wrote:Here is the split mitten pattern, drawn on a 1" grid. I'm sorry about the dark spots...they seem to be *in* my camera.

Mac

Very cool! I have been thinking about making my own gloves for gauntlets since the deer skin ranchers gloves I have been using for 20 years seem to be phasing out of hardware stores.

You should sniglet the name of these and call them "Splittens"

Johann,

I hope this will be of assistance to you. I also drew up a mitten pattern, if you (or anyone else) are interested.

I'm going to try to forget I ever saw the word you suggested above....it's repugnantly cute.

Mac

Thanks for the pattern - something to try out

Galileo wrote:Thanks for the pattern - something to try out

Galileo,

You're welcome. Let us know how they turn out.

Mac

Mac,

As soon as I get some appropriate leather and a little time, I'll post my results

G--

Yep, definitely going to try making a couple pairs before Gulf Wars. Mac, do you want me make a scalable PDF of the pattern?

Oh, and one construction question comes to mind. I see the pattern is about 9" around at the widest part of the hand. How big around is your hand there, Mac? How much ease was put into the pattern? Thanks!

mephit wrote:Yep, definitely going to try making a couple pairs before Gulf Wars.

I look forward to seeing how they come out. I recommend making one pair first, and them tweaking the pattern if necessary.

mephit wrote:Mac, do you want me make a scalable PDF of the pattern?

That would be great! (I didn't even know there was such a thing....)

mephit wrote:Oh, and one construction question comes to mind. I see the pattern is about 9" around at the widest part of the hand. How big around is your hand there, Mac? How much ease was put into the pattern? Thanks!

My hand is about 8 3/4" at the knuckles, and more like 9" just before them. So, basically there is no slop. This is why it is important to use deerskin or some other "glovey" leather.

Mac

Mac wrote:Johann,

I hope this will be of assistance to you. I also drew up a mitten pattern, if you (or anyone else) are interested.

I'm going to try to forget I ever saw the word you suggested above....it's repugnantly cute.

Mac

You know, if someone made a pair and fell in love with them they could be called...Smittens.


OK, I'm done.

Johann ColdIron wrote:

You know, if someone made a pair and fell in love with them they could be called...Smittens.


OK, I'm done.

It seems to me that Smittins(tm) should be the insulated ones that you use in the shop.

Mac

The phone picture I took of the documentation was blurry, so I'm just going to estimate the date on the gauntlets at 1580. I thought people might like to see how the edges of the mittens were sewn, but I have no idea if they are original or not.
(Saint Louis Art Museum)


The edges on the peripheral seams are not on the inside of the mitten.

So, as someone who has limited experience with such things - what would be a recommended thread to sew these together?

Galileo wrote:So, as someone who has limited experience with such things - what would be a recommended thread to sew these together?

Waxed linen thread. Just like other leather projects there are stress points on gloves that could blow out. Waxed linen will break instead of the leather, artificial sinew or polyester thread will likely not break and your leather will instead rip.

I use the same linen thread I use for clothing for purses or gloves.

Where can I get waxed lineb thread?

Mostly I wax my own thread before I sew it. Just need a small amount of beeswax and linen thread and pull the thread through the edge of the wax a few times.

Some thicker linen threads come waxed on the spool but they are typically really thick; thicker than I would use for fine leather working like gloves.

I agree with what Master Biblesworth has said but would also like to add an option. In medieval leatherworking, the linen thread was often cered (fancy leatherworking term for waxing) with a mixture called code (coade, coad, cood, etc) that was a sticky wax used to both make the thread water resistant and glue it somewhat into the holes. Beeswax protects the thread well, but its a lubricant as well, so when the thread breaks it can pull out of the seam more easily. Using a sticky wax helps keep the thread in the holes even when it has broken.

Unfortunately, there are no surviving medieval recipes for code but you can make a pretty good approximation of it based on 18th century recipes by using beeswax, rosin and olive oil. Small, even quantities of beeswax and rosin are melted together and then mixed with a few drops of olive oil to soften the wax if necessary. A couple of ounces has lasted me years.

The beeswax should be melted in a double boiler to reduce the chance of fire but recognize that you'll never get all the wax out of the pot, so don't use your significant other's cooking pots! Use something sacrificial like a tin can suspended over a pot of boiling water. The rosin (which you can get at music supply stores for rosining violin bows) melts at a higher temperature than water boils, so you can't use a double boiler for it. Be careful! it can catch fire very easily. When both are liquid, remove from the heat and pour one into the other and stir thoroughly with something sacrificial like a cheap metal spoon from the DAV. Don't worry about being vigorous with it as frothing the wax won't help, but you want them well blended. Let it cool for a while, checking it regularly for comfortable temperature. Once cool enough to touch, scoop the mixture out and kneed it well to finish the mixing. You must be careful here as it may be hotter than you think and it will stick very well to skin! This can be somewhat like napalm. Not nice!

Once well kneeded, let it cool completely and check how hard it is. You want a consistency softer than beeswax but not so soft it will go runny on you when warmed. I like it to be firm, but able to take a good thumbprint when cold. If it's too hard, it will flake off the thread when used. If it's too soft, it won't stay on the thread well and will get everywhere. If it's too hard, warm the wax a bit then make a depression in the wax and add a few drops of olive oil into it. Seal the depression and then kneed the wax thoroughly to work the oil through it. It should soften it remarkably. If the wax is too soft, melt the code in one of the cans and add some more melted beeswax to it, then finish as the original mixture.

Once you have a good consistency, store it somewhere cool and dry, away from anything it can stick to. I wrap mine in a piece of scrap leather. To use it warm it with your hands until it can be kneaded easily then knead it to even the temperature throughout the wax. Liberally cere your thread with it, just as you would when using plain beeswax. Your thread will now be very sticky. You'll get used to it.

mephit wrote: Mac, do you want me make a scalable PDF of the pattern?

Did this scalable PDF ever come into being? I'd be keen on a copy if so!

Thanks,