Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wheel)

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Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wheel)

Post by Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi »

good members of the board,
I have been binging on the information contained here for a few days, focusing my efforts of the hardening of leather. I have become pretty well verse in Water/wax/glue/acrylic hardening methods. But there are a few points i still have a couple of questions.
For glue and wax methods with baking. Why use the glue or wax at all since the baking is exactly like the baking for water hardening or is it simply to affect faster drying times.

For wax immersion: why bake the piece of leather after immersing the leather in wax. A solid mix of beeswax and carnauba wax has a melting point of about 170 F which is the tempt desired for baking leather, if immersed till the air is replace (bubbles stop) that means the entire piece is saturated with 170 F degree liquid and the chemical change is happening. Baking it may improve drying times but would seem redundant to affect polymerization. Theory support: immersing leather in 180 F water for 20-30 seconds is sufficient to harden for the purposes of armor.

Has anyone put thought into these?

Another question for the SCA folks. I know that wax hardening is not period. Wax is a lubricant, period waxes have low melt points... etc. However we make accommodations for the game that we play often and to a degree we adapt the armor we choose because we deal with blunt force far more often then cutting blades. Would this not suggest that wax, with good shock absorbing qualities, would then be more ideal as it fills the leather cells and increases protection from blunt objects and limits shock transmission through the leather. I'm not sure if anyone has tested water versus wax in a test like that but i would be extremely interested to hear results.

for the wax process, do you wet form, let dry, then wax immerse, or can the wax immersion proved the forming needed?

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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Talmoor »

My only experience with wax hardening was a pair of gauntlets with waxed cuffs. Sitting in the sun on a hot day ended up with slippery soft cuffs and I never bothered to try again. My experiments with water hardening were much more stable.

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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Brennainn »

With wax hardening, shape with water, dry in a low setting in the oven. Make sure that the leather is bone dry, then wax harden. I don't use anything other than dipping into a vat. The wax should be hot, but not smoking. Be patient when warming this up, as parafin is a combustable gas ( and stinks). If the leather bubbles as you submerse it this is about right. If it forms a film on the leather it's too cold. Submerse untill bubbling stops.
Water hardening is very interesting, but has a lot more variables.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi »

@Brenainn,
Does the forming hold well even after saturating in the wax, or does it lose form?

@Talmoor,
I'm aware of the softening and melting in the sun, that why the specific mix of carnauba and beeswax, the melting point is about 170 F and it only begins softening around 155 F. I wish i had saved some of the dentistry papers i read on the elting points of wax but they were very elaborate in testing as it was what they made molds out of. So the wax needed to last up to a point where whatever material they were using for the casting was still liquid.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Baron Alcyoneus »

I'm not sure that the polymerization that happens with water hardening would happen if it is saturated with wax.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Brennainn »

With moderate to good leather, yes. With crap or belly leather, not so much. I use fairly thick leather myself. With the very thick leather I have had pieces last for 10 plus years. For thinner or low quality stuff, it may not be worth the effort.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Vitus von Atzinger »

Dunk drop piece in boiling water- 1 second dunk.
After it dries rub wax on it, then bake it.
First harden then wax. The wax is a sealant against sweat, rain and dirt.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi »

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:Dunk drop piece in boiling water- 1 second dunk.
After it dries rub wax on it, then bake it.
First harden then wax. The wax is a sealant against sweat, rain and dirt.
Vitus,
Why the one second dunk of water?
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Brennainn »

More than that and it will become a pork rind looking thing.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Vitus von Atzinger »

Exactly
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Oswyn_de_Wulferton »

Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi wrote: Another question for the SCA folks. I know that wax hardening is not period. Wax is a lubricant, period waxes have low melt points... etc. However we make accommodations for the game that we play often and to a degree we adapt the armor we choose because we deal with blunt force far more often then cutting blades. Would this not suggest that wax, with good shock absorbing qualities, would then be more ideal as it fills the leather cells and increases protection from blunt objects and limits shock transmission through the leather. I'm not sure if anyone has tested water versus wax in a test like that but i would be extremely interested to hear results.

for the wax process, do you wet form, let dry, then wax immerse, or can the wax immersion proved the forming needed?

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Period ways were using hide or rabbit glue. From what I have followed of the scientifically minded around here, the glue helps fortify/fill in/stabilize the crystalline matrix (for lack of a better way to describe it) when it is raised to a temp of over 168(?)deg F for an extended period of time. Any historical use of wax, AFAIK, was to act as a sealant or conditioner. I have had very good results with casing the leather overnight for a damp core while still letting the outside be dry, then using the glue mixture. At one point, I did a step by step post of Duke Gavin's Titebond method, which I have found to be the most consistent and hardest.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by daggrim2 »

If your leather shrinks after a few seconds in the water, either the water is much too hot, or the leather is too thin. It should take between 1 and 2 minutes at 170 to 180 degrees with 12 to 13 oz leather. Also, presoak the leather in water. This helps alleviate the tendency for what I call thermal shock, which would cook the leather and cause the outside to get brittle.
I've never used wax...just the water, with good results. I'd expect that the best method would be to water harden first, then wax later as a sealant. This assures that the stiffness of the leather is from the cuir buoilli method, and not the faux cuir buoilli of just filling in the spaces with wax. That's what makes some wax hardened leather go soft in the sun. I
I'd suspect that that's why some people bake the wax hardened leather...to achieve the actual cuir buoilli polymerization of the leather.
I'm really not sure if that still happens once it's waxed. I'd think the best method would be water hardening followed by the wax. That way you have proof that the leather has been hardened properly. I've made hundreds of pieces of hardened leather, so I have some experience, but I don't have all the answers. Pick what you can use, and forget the rest.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi »

Daggrim,
Thank you for the advice, you give me an idea. As i was wondering about the hardening of the leather on it's ability to form. Cariadoc's essay on water hardening says that the leather loses it's stretch and hardens within a few minutes after removing from he water. This makes sense if it is in the process of polymerizing. Do you find this to be true.

In my reading cold water forming requires the piece to sit for hours on the form before it will hold it's shape. If shaping it after hot water hardening how long before the piece can be removed and left to dry. Also how much shrinkage do you experience.

I have heard that you can't really dye leather before water hardening, or after wards. do you find this to be the case.

Do you bake your pieces dry?

I appreciate you patience, most of the essays i find cover the basics but not some of these finer points. It is simpler to ask someone who does it.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Ismaels-Legacy »

I use the same method that Vitus does, though Between hardening and waxing, I apply tooling and oil-based dyes. THEN I apply the wax coat which starts with warm beeswax, but the final coating is a combination of beeswax and neatsfoot oil that I rendered into a paste. This gives the final coat a nice polish.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Kilkenny »

Brennainn wrote:With wax hardening, shape with water, dry in a low setting in the oven. Make sure that the leather is bone dry, then wax harden. I don't use anything other than dipping into a vat. The wax should be hot, but not smoking. Be patient when warming this up, as parafin is a combustable gas ( and stinks). If the leather bubbles as you submerse it this is about right. If it forms a film on the leather it's too cold. Submerse untill bubbling stops.
Water hardening is very interesting, but has a lot more variables.

The process described above is not wax hardening ;) It is, instead, water hardening followed by wax saturation. It's rather redundant, imo.

For true wax hardening, you wet your leather to form it, permit it to dry in that shape, then dip it into molten wax. This provides the temperature needed for the chemical changes in the leather proteins to occur, and allows wax to permeate the piece of leather.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Kilkenny »

Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi wrote:Daggrim,
Thank you for the advice, you give me an idea. As i was wondering about the hardening of the leather on it's ability to form. Cariadoc's essay on water hardening says that the leather loses it's stretch and hardens within a few minutes after removing from he water. This makes sense if it is in the process of polymerizing. Do you find this to be true.

In my reading cold water forming requires the piece to sit for hours on the form before it will hold it's shape. If shaping it after hot water hardening how long before the piece can be removed and left to dry. Also how much shrinkage do you experience.

I have heard that you can't really dye leather before water hardening, or after wards. do you find this to be the case.

Do you bake your pieces dry?

I appreciate you patience, most of the essays i find cover the basics but not some of these finer points. It is simpler to ask someone who does it.
There are differences of opinion about the dipping in hot water approach. Some people certainly have success with it, but it is finicky and not as simple as the ones with success would make it appear ;) I was there helping HG Cariadoc with his first ventures into water hardening, and there was plenty of error in the trials.

It's also worth noting that leather hardened that way, in my experience, punches very easily and cuts quite nicely. Leather hardened by the bake method will resist punching and tends to crack first. In other words, the baking process produces something I find is more appropriate for protection against weapons.

You can absolutely dye before bake hardening (which is just a form of water hardening) and you can dye after hardening - but it gives a distinctly different effect and should be experimented with to determine whether you like it or not ;)

For forming leather, you do not need to soak it. It just needs to be moist, not wet through. Unless you're trying to do forms that simply are not going to occur in armour ;) When damp, not wet, leather will form and hold its shape pretty readily.

With both dipping in hot water and baking, the leather will be malleable for a bit after you remove it from the heat . In fact, you can reheat and reshape if necessary. I wouldn't put it back in the hto water, but another visit to the oven and you can make adjustments readily.

Also, you can read everything ever written and not understand any of it until you have had your hands on some leather and worked with the techniques for some time. This is an incredibly experiential sort of craft, wherein textual instruction can only give you starting points.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Kilkenny »

Ismaels-Legacy wrote:I use the same method that Vitus does, though Between hardening and waxing, I apply tooling and oil-based dyes. THEN I apply the wax coat which starts with warm beeswax, but the final coating is a combination of beeswax and neatsfoot oil that I rendered into a paste. This gives the final coat a nice polish.

what sort of tooling are you doing on hardened leather?
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Vitus von Atzinger »

It's not entirely redundant, Gavin.

Oh, BTW- Gavin taught me everything I know about *every* process I have ever tried, so it's really not important that you people read my posts here.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi »

Ok, if i may sum up what i've read to see if i have understood.
Wax hardening (not period)
1. wet form leather and let dry.
2. melt wax/s of choice to just above their melting point. (155 for bees, and paraffin, 185 for carnauba, 170 for 1:5 ratio carnauba/beeswax)
3. immerse in wax till bubbles stop (Oh My God Bubbles)
4. remove from wax and place in oven at lowest heat. (this I have surmised is to allow for a slower drying time and more equal distribution of wax in the piece. Dry to fast and the wax won't harden evenly, possible soft spots)
5. When visibly dry remove from oven.
Dangers: Paraffin explodes, your house smells like beeswax forever, possible burns, scorch the leather if you place directly on metal, leather may/will soften if reheated, extra weight.
Bonuses: Wax protects leather from the weather, mold, and mildew. Wax impregnating the leather without chemical change in the material of the leather may help prevent the leather itself from cracking with hit. Damage is usually repariable with a trip to the oven.

Water hardening. (Hot dip version.)
1. Bring water to 180 F
2a. soak leather piece in cold water.
2b. Immerse in water for 1-2 minutes. More time equals thicker leather equals more shrinkage.
3. Remove from water wrap on to form.
4. Item will set in a couple of minutes. Remove and let dry for several days.
5. Seal Leather in which ever method you wish. (polish, wax, acrylics floor polish)
Dangers: Uneven hardening. Cracking of leather. Shrinkage. Poor control (anything done quickly will have a larger margin of error). Darkens dye is dyed before. Mottles dye if dyed after. not resistant to punches or cuts.
Bonuses: Fast, small amount of equipment needed, more period than wax, cheaper because you don't need pounds and pounds of wax.

Water Hardening (bake method)
1. Preheat oven to 180F (good luck folks, most ovens have a min temp of 200F and fluctuate based on which type of heating method it uses. For advice on how to maintain temp, read someone else's tutorial, this is a precise)
2. Wet form leather Piece.
3. Place on wooden cutting board or other non meltable non flammable low heat transfer object.
4. Place in oven.
5. Watch until signs show the piece is mostly dry.
5.b (optional) remove piece every so often to continue hand forming the leather, this is much like tooling where, when the piece is near to dry, you can permanently affect the shape. Good for rounder points on bazubands and elbow cops or anywhere else that would be significantly dished on metal.
6. Remove from oven let dry several days.
7. Seal leather in desired method. (polish, wax, acrylics floor polish)
Dangers: Burns, Hope you have an oven large enough for the process, Slower, still needs sealing, scorching of leather.
Bonuses: Complete even polymerization of leather. Far more control, More precision, allows for slower, more precise shaping of the leather. Can be dyed before hardening (probable darkening of dye) or after (probable mottling of dye)

Glue
1. wet form leather piece.
2. immerse piece in water/glue solution
3. bake till dry (as bake hardening process)
Dangers: For truly period glue many animals will contribute to the creation of your glue, burns, scorching. extra weight. Most common used glue for this process is blatantly modern. Still needs to be sealed.
Bonuses: Truly Period (till we find the next hypothesis of how they did it) the glue adds support to the polymerization and fills voids in the, now hardened, cells. Similar reinforcement as wax, less susceptible to cuts and piercing. Can be dyed.

Gavin, does it look like i have my facts straight, also any picture of post hardened dye?

I will be documenting with photos my whole experience of putting my armor together in which ever hardening form me and my accomplice decide.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Ismaels-Legacy »

Kilkenny wrote:
Ismaels-Legacy wrote:I use the same method that Vitus does, though Between hardening and waxing, I apply tooling and oil-based dyes. THEN I apply the wax coat which starts with warm beeswax, but the final coating is a combination of beeswax and neatsfoot oil that I rendered into a paste. This gives the final coat a nice polish.

what sort of tooling are you doing on hardened leather?

I scribe line work into the surface using a scratch awl, and then smooth out the lines with an antler tine. It allows me to get a nice, detailed design onto the surface, especially after hardening the leather.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by mongrel »

Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi wrote: Dangers: Burns, Hope you have an oven large enough for the process, Slower, still needs sealing, scorching of leather.
Bonuses: Complete even polymerization of leather. Far more control, More precision, allows for slower, more precise shaping of the leather. Can be dyed before hardening (probable darkening of dye) or after (probable mottling of dye).
I have tried every method you mentioned above and the water hardening with baking has been the most successful for me. I dye before I harden and aside from a small amount of bleeding while submerged I've never had to seal or finish the piece at all. If I find my sweat is deterioating the leather I'll rub it down with neatsfoot oil with no issues at all. I agree with the control and precision aspects which is why it's my choice method.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Oswyn_de_Wulferton »

The still needs sealing depends on exactly what is used for the submersion. Straight water or hide glue, yes. A Titebond III mixture leaves it nearly waterproof.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Kilkenny »

Ismaels-Legacy wrote:
Kilkenny wrote:
Ismaels-Legacy wrote:I use the same method that Vitus does, though Between hardening and waxing, I apply tooling and oil-based dyes. THEN I apply the wax coat which starts with warm beeswax, but the final coating is a combination of beeswax and neatsfoot oil that I rendered into a paste. This gives the final coat a nice polish.

what sort of tooling are you doing on hardened leather?

I scribe line work into the surface using a scratch awl, and then smooth out the lines with an antler tine. It allows me to get a nice, detailed design onto the surface, especially after hardening the leather.
Cool. I can see where that would work nicely. What I couldn't see was "conventional" tooling after hardening ;)
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by daggrim2 »

Oddbjorn, in answer to your questions.

Yes, the leather remains stretchy for about a minute, and can be removed from the mold in five to ten minutes to dry.

Shrinkage is from negligible to 5% for 12 oz leather, heated to 175 degrees. At 180 degrees, the process speeds up, and takes maybe half the time. So the temp is extremely crutical. Y'gotta watch it like a hawk. Note that softer leather will shrink more than stiff leather. Softer leather will not get as hard as stiffer leather, and it'll shrink too much if you push the time or temp in an attempt to get it harder, so it makes a difference what you start out with.

I've dyed hundreds of pieces after water hardening with no almost no problem. Altho the leather doesn't like to take dye as nicely if the edges of the piece are beginning to curl. If it's been hardened to a reddish color, and is sandpapery on the back, it may need an extra couple of coats of dye. I don't harden my leather as hard as I possibly can, because I make leather helmets, and the shrinkage would become a problem.

If I get a big piece that just didn't harden properly, I bake it at 200 for 40 minutes, after a 5 minute soaking in tepid water.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi »

Daggrim,
Thank you for the answers. It has been mentioned several times that the dye doesn't like to take on the hardened armor, and that a single coat can cause something like a wood grain pattern. For the edification of others i will test several pieces of hardened leather with one/two/three coats and post for reference.

I was contemplating making a leather helmet as a covering for my fencing mask for Cut and Thrust fencing. Any advice?

Odd- who thinks of two questions for every one answer.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by daggrim2 »

Oddvar, excellent analysis btw. Worth printing off as a reference guide. I'll add some helm pics. Glad to answer any questions.
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Viking Helmet.jpg
Viking Helmet.jpg (56.58 KiB) Viewed 4348 times
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi »

I plan on posting my progress on this armor, where should i start the thread for it?
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Konstantin the Red »

Design & Construction. If it is a try at a perfect replica of a historical piece, maybe Interpretive Re-creation.
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by daggrim2 »

Can anybody help me figure this out? Over half of the pictures I try to view are just dead links. For example this...

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Viking Helmet.jpg [ 56.58 KiB | Viewed 69 times ]

...is all I got for the picture of my own helmet that I attached. Most of the pics that are posted here look like this on my computer. Anybody got any idea why?
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi »

Konstantine,
Thanks for the tip, I'm not going for a perfect recreation unfortunately. But I am formatting my posts so that anyone could recreate these pieces from a cold start.

Daggrim,
I can still see the photo fine, i'm not sure about the issue.

Odd
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi »

After some experimentation i must ask, will the end result of Bake hardened leather have any flexibility left to it or will it be stiff as wood?
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Russ Mitchell »

Some flexibility, but not much. It'll have the springy sort of flexion flexibility that wood has, but forget bending it in more than one plane unless you're strong enough to tear cuirboilli with your bare hands
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Kilkenny »

Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi wrote:After some experimentation i must ask, will the end result of Bake hardened leather have any flexibility left to it or will it be stiff as wood?
In my experience the surface feels hard, tapping it will sound like you're tapping on wood, but it will definitely have some flexibility and some spring to it. Just don't try and go too far, because with conventional fully tanned leather, when you surpass it's flexibility it will crack, probably clear through.

With half-tanned leather that has been hardened, I've been able to take an elbow cop, pop it inside out and back again. It does not get quite as hard as fully tanned, but is very much tougher in the end result. I think they probably used half-tanned for making armour.
Gavin Kilkenny
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Noble Lion Leather
hardened leather armour and sundry leather goods
www.noblelionleather.com
Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi »

I would think that the slight flexibility provides a level of protection in and of itself. Absorbs a bit of the blow itself. The leather i prodeced knocked like wood and would flex on only one axis but always returned to the same shape. Also it would allow a bit of flex when strapping the armor down.
Pictures on my post that is detailing my experiments a little later today
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Re: Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wh

Post by daggrim2 »

Just as a note about flex, and returning back to shape, with unwaxed cuir buoilli, if it gets soaked in a rain, it will soften up by maybe 40%, but it will regain it's hardness when dry. So it's important to dry it in the shape you want. If you toss it in a corner, it'll dry into a corner-ish shape.
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