Hardening leather: the finer points (not remaking the wheel)

[Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi]

When all is dry and dyed i will be sealing with a beeswake mineral oil rub my friend who is a leather worker uses.

[bhaiduk]

3. Place on wooden cutting board or other non meltable non flammable low heat transfer object.

Why does it need to be low heat transfer? I was hoping to use a set of stainless vambraces as forms.

[Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi]

from what i've been told, is that metal transfers heat differently when in direct contact, this can cause scorching of the leather. I've also been told that a layer or two of newpaper mitigates this effect so you could still use the steel ones as forms. I'm sure if i am incorrect someone will speak up.

[daggrim2]

I'd like to revive this thread to seek some guidance regarding glue hardening. I have been using the method of submerging the leather in hot water in a pot. I use this as opposed to soaking and baking because I usually do about fifteen pieces at a time, so it's a much more efficient assembly line system. and there's not enough room in my oven. My forming molds wouldn't take the heat, either.

Anyway, I'd like to upgrade my leather helmets by using glue to make them even harder, and impervious to the rain. So, let me first see if I understand the method you guys use...

First the leather is soaked in tepid water, then formed, and then baked. After it's dry, it's painted with Titebond III, front and back. Correct? Is it glued at room temp, or is it glued when it's hot from the baking?

Assuming I continue to use my water submersion method, should I just paint the glue on after the leather is dried, or do I need to heat the leather first? Does the leather need to be moistened first, or do you paint it on dry?

I'd continue to dye my stuff as I currently do, after it's dry from the water hardening (and so before the glue). I dye after the water hardening because that way I can stockpile the undyed parts on my shelf, ready to be used for custom orders.

So, here's the other Big Question, do you think that the glue can be added to the 175 degree water, 1:10 mix, so that I could accomplish the hardening and the glueing in a single step? Has anybody tried that? That would be a very efficient way of getting this done.

Or, if anybody has a better idea, I'd like to hear it.

[Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi]

Daggrim,
As i understand the process of glue hardening, it is exactly like water hardening using the baking method. You start you mixture with 1:10 glue water the soak to saturation, this allows the glue to bind to the fibers of the leather. adding extra reinforcement when you bake it.
Also the glue provides a degree of weather resistance but is not weather proof, you would still need to seal the leather once dry.

[Peikko]

First the leather is soaked in tepid water, then formed, and then baked. After it's dry, it's painted with Titebond III, front and back. Correct?

Nope, not like that.

So, here's the other Big Question, do you think that the glue can be added to the 175 degree water, 1:10 mix, so that I could accomplish the hardening and the glueing in a single step? Has anybody tried that? That would be a very efficient way of getting this done.

Yep...that's more like it. Except that the water only needs to be warmish and the oven should be on a low setting like 175.


EDIT: dang Oddbjorn ninja'd me

[Andeerz]

Hi! From what I've done:

I form it in warm water, then bake. After that, I don't paint the titebond on, I submerge the baked leather item in a 9 parts water 1 part titebond solution for about 15 seconds (not long enough to soften things), making sure it's completely covered. After that I dye the leather (but I dyed mine with black all-in-one dye from Tandy which is pretty much a thick goop... I think with anything else, dyeing before the glue soak would be a good idea as the titebond might prevent the dye from taking a good hold... but I'd get advice from someone more experienced).

I did this with a pair of demis of mine, and they have lasted a year without softening significantly, though they are now a little softer in some parts that bend a little with use. Also, some of the dye has come off a bit in some places that experienced wear, leading me to believe the dyeing is best done before glue soaking.

I do wonder, though... I wonder if steaming the wet leather in really hot steam would harden things better...

[daggrim2]

OK, thanks guys...but for Oddbjorn and Peikko (Suomi?), when do you dye it? It would work best for me if I could dye it afterwards, even a few months later. Anybody else, besides Andeerz , tried that over the top of dried glue? The helms I make never flex, so the dye wearing off that way wouldn't happen.

[Malek]

My methods (similar to other's here)
This is all using 10-12oz or 12-14oz veg tan leather.
Tooling / dyeing is all done before the hardening treatments.
When dyeing I dilute the dye about 1/2 or 2/3 with denatured alcohol (I only get the Feibling's alcohol based dyes, never the oil based ones. The hardening process I use darkens the dye a lot.

Pure wax - I use this mainly for munitions/ production pieces and not for commissions.
* Cut the pieces and use small nut/bolts to make sure the fit and articulation will work.
* Dye as needed (usually dark dyes for this)
* heat parrafin or candle wax of the same color of dye to lightly smoking in a pan or pot.
* Dip the leather in the wax for no longer than 10 seconds. 5-8 seconds seems to do the trick in most cases.
* The waxed leather is hot and flexible when it comes out - set it to the final desired shape when it comes out. (usually wrapping around a form).
* wait for the wax / leather to cool.
* Fire up the heat gun, use it on the leather to get the leather to absorb excess wax or have it drip off back into the pan.
* Once it cools again, do final assembly, let sit at least 24 hours.

Water hardened/ Wax sealed - better results, does not soften and has proven to be water-proof. Can be used with tooling and effective dying.
* Find a container that will hold the leather pieces and enough water to cover them.
* Hot tap water seems to get faster penetration of water into the leather, but cold water works, just takes a little longer. 1-24 hours depending on your schedule.
* Pull the pieces out and set them between 2 cloth towels for about an hour.
* Dishing and other shaping of the leather is best now.
* Now they are ready for tooling and/or dyeing. (Use the dilution of dye mentioned before, especially for non-black colors!)
* The leather should also be good to go for tooling and smoothing/burnishing the edges.
* Allow the leather to dry to the point where it's still really damp but will mostly hold it's own shape.
* Use an oven thermometer at the same place in the oven that the leather will be at. 200 on a modern electric oven will be about 160 or so in the center rack. So you can set the oven a little higher and it will be fine. Just don't let the temp where the leather actually is to get above 220. 180-200 seems to be the magic number to get a good hardening with out burning or warping the leather.
* I use a cooling rack set into a cookie sheet to avoid scorching.
* After about 1/2 hour - check the leather. Make sure it's not scorching or warping (this can happen if it's too close to the sides) Also make sure it's holding shape - adjust as needed.
* Keep checking about every 1/2 hour to see if the leather is completely dry. You should be able to handle the leather bare-handed, but it will be a bit uncomfortable to handle.
* And here is the most important step: If you have a spouse / significant other: Take them out to dinner the same evening you are baking leather. Then they are more likely to forgive you for making the house smell like a burnt saddle.

* Once the leather is fully dry and hardened and still in the shape its supposed to be in - allow it to cool and set at least overnight, if not a full 24 hours.
* Now is a good time to put paint into any tooled sections before sealing.
* Heat parrafin in a pot or pan to fully melted and fairly liquid.
* Breifly dunk (less than 1 second) or use a sauce brush to get the parrafin all over the surface of the leather.
* Use a heat gun to further melt the blobs of wax to get the leather to absorb it and/or to drip off the excess. Top-down works best.
*Allow the leather to sit for at least a couple of hours, then do final assembly and strapping.

Eventually I'll get this written up in a paper of some sort and put it as a document on Facebook or here even.
First method - likely the leather will soften up after a while, but I have had no direct complaints.
Using the second method, I have had leather be rock solid after 5+ years of abuse.

[Kilkenny]

So, here's the other Big Question, do you think that the glue can be added to the 175 degree water, 1:10 mix, so that I could accomplish the hardening and the glueing in a single step? Has anybody tried that? That would be a very efficient way of getting this done.

Or, if anybody has a better idea, I'd like to hear it.

I think that would make an interesting experiment and have no preconceptions regarding how it might work

[Kilkenny]

3. Place on wooden cutting board or other non meltable non flammable low heat transfer object.

Why does it need to be low heat transfer? I was hoping to use a set of stainless vambraces as forms.

The other piece of the puzzle here isn'[t as important if you're using stainless - but wet veg tan leather reacts chemically with iron oxide, turning the leather black. So in addition to scorching, which can be an issue, you can also get discoloration due to the chemistry.

[Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi]

daggrim,
After my experiment i would advice dying before any hardening is done, it will darken the dye but after it is hardening you will need to use more dye and it will not come out evenly.
As for adding glue to the pot of 175 water. That is the process i call flash hardening. I don't think it would work well, as i understand the process with glue hardening the glue needs time to bind with the fibers in the leather then as it hardens adds a certain extra mass and rigidity to the piece. The flash hardening the leather would starts hardening the moment it touched the water leaving too little time for the glue to bind.

For anyone reading, has anyone tried using glue in the water for casing before doing the wax hardening (not just sealing) process. I wonder if it wouldn't allow for the leather fibers to harden as well as the air spaces to be filled with wax for extra protection. yes i know wax would lubricate the leather making it more, not less, susceptible to puncture and cutting, this idea is for functional longer term sca and other full contact fighting with non cutting blades, not for admission into an A&S competition.

[daggrim2]

There's quite a range of techniques here, and it's taking time just to sift thru it all, and to think of new ways to configure the process. Maybe we'll hit on something new and better than anything yet tried.

[Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi]

That is why i didn't stick with a singular method of hardening for my first set or armor, I want to try most of the methods and see what works.
Also to see how the chemistry of it all worked out.

[daggrim2]

Looks like we need to start a cuir buoilli guild...once we learn how to spell it. Whenever I get to that word I just wing it. I spell like Lewis and Clarke, who had something like a dozen different spellings of the word Sioux.

[Kilkenny]

daggrim,
After my experiment i would advice dying before any hardening is done, it will darken the dye but after it is hardening you will need to use more dye and it will not come out evenly.
As for adding glue to the pot of 175 water. That is the process i call flash hardening. I don't think it would work well, as i understand the process with glue hardening the glue needs time to bind with the fibers in the leather then as it hardens adds a certain extra mass and rigidity to the piece. The flash hardening the leather would starts hardening the moment it touched the water leaving too little time for the glue to bind.

For anyone reading, has anyone tried using glue in the water for casing before doing the wax hardening (not just sealing) process. I wonder if it wouldn't allow for the leather fibers to harden as well as the air spaces to be filled with wax for extra protection. yes i know wax would lubricate the leather making it more, not less, susceptible to puncture and cutting, this idea is for functional longer term sca and other full contact fighting with non cutting blades, not for admission into an A&S competition.

Part of how the wax hardening works is introducing wax into the interstices of the leather, where it solidifies. If the glue is already there holding fibers together, then the wax doesn't have as much space to fill. They're not, in my estimation, going to work well together.

Also, in terms of adding mass - the glue adds less weight to the leather than the water that gets driven off in the hardening process. My hardened pieces weigh no more than the leather prior to treatment, and in some cases probably less (high humidity leather with lots of water to drive out).

Wax definitely adds substantial weight.

[Kel Rekuta]

Looks like we need to start a cuir buoilli guild...once we learn how to spell it. Whenever I get to that word I just wing it. I spell like Lewis and Clarke, who had something like a dozen different spellings of the word Sioux.

That's okay... there wasn't a particular spelling of "bouilli" more popular than others in period, AKAIK. The real question is whether it means stuffed or packed or dipped or boiled or ....

[Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi]

Part of how the wax hardening works is introducing wax into the interstices of the leather, where it solidifies. If the glue is already there holding fibers together, then the wax doesn't have as much space to fill. They're not, in my estimation, going to work well together.

Also, in terms of adding mass - the glue adds less weight to the leather than the water that gets driven off in the hardening process. My hardened pieces weigh no more than the leather prior to treatment, and in some cases probably less (high humidity leather with lots of water to drive out).

Wax definitely adds substantial weight.

Much as respect your wisdom and experience i feel i must disagree with your theory on the glue. To me, I would think that if the glue truly filled the interstitial spaces then there would be added mass, but when you look at how glue acts outside of leather, drying clear and flat, I would expect that when diluted to the level that it is it would coat the leather fibers leaving the interstitial space still a void. This way when the leather is baked the glue also hardened on the leather fibers themselves giving it a stronger structure, but not adding extra mass because there is only a fine coat around the fibers.

Another point to is the fact that the leather is still capable of being wax or leather sealed after the drying process. If the leather is able to absorb the wax to make the weather proof seal then there are still spaces for the wax to fill.

As far as the weight of the wax impregnated leather i would dearly like to see if anyone has run a comparison study on the start and end weights of all the forms of hardening for comparison. I would think that in some cases adding mass to the leather would allow you to use a thinner leather than you would with other methods. It was mentioned before that it is inadvisable to use leather that is too thin for hardening because taking away the flex makes thinner leather more likely to crack and break. Also that hardening provides no extra intrinsic strength. However the extra mass from the wax as well as the shock absorption properties of waxed leather may well make 7-8 oz leather as heavy as and as strong as 10-12oz leather. For instance i know that Torvaldr uses 7-8 oz leather in his hardened scales yet they protect and last as well as steel. Now i don't know his whole process but i don't think that he uses wax hardening alone, he does call it his "3 stage process" which seems to me that it works quite well "for what we do"

When i have the disposable funds I will happily conduct this experiment myself as i've already redesigned the patterns for my greaves and bazubands a couple of times since making the originals, but it will be some months before i can.

[Kilkenny]

Part of how the wax hardening works is introducing wax into the interstices of the leather, where it solidifies. If the glue is already there holding fibers together, then the wax doesn't have as much space to fill. They're not, in my estimation, going to work well together.

Also, in terms of adding mass - the glue adds less weight to the leather than the water that gets driven off in the hardening process. My hardened pieces weigh no more than the leather prior to treatment, and in some cases probably less (high humidity leather with lots of water to drive out).

Wax definitely adds substantial weight.

Much as respect your wisdom and experience i feel i must disagree with your theory on the glue. To me, I would think that if the glue truly filled the interstitial spaces then there would be added mass, but when you look at how glue acts outside of leather, drying clear and flat, I would expect that when diluted to the level that it is it would coat the leather fibers leaving the interstitial space still a void. This way when the leather is baked the glue also hardened on the leather fibers themselves giving it a stronger structure, but not adding extra mass because there is only a fine coat around the fibers.

Another point to is the fact that the leather is still capable of being wax or leather sealed after the drying process. If the leather is able to absorb the wax to make the weather proof seal then there are still spaces for the wax to fill.

As far as the weight of the wax impregnated leather i would dearly like to see if anyone has run a comparison study on the start and end weights of all the forms of hardening for comparison. I would think that in some cases adding mass to the leather would allow you to use a thinner leather than you would with other methods. It was mentioned before that it is inadvisable to use leather that is too thin for hardening because taking away the flex makes thinner leather more likely to crack and break. Also that hardening provides no extra intrinsic strength. However the extra mass from the wax as well as the shock absorption properties of waxed leather may well make 7-8 oz leather as heavy as and as strong as 10-12oz leather. For instance i know that Torvaldr uses 7-8 oz leather in his hardened scales yet they protect and last as well as steel. Now i don't know his whole process but i don't think that he uses wax hardening alone, he does call it his "3 stage process" which seems to me that it works quite well "for what we do"

When i have the disposable funds I will happily conduct this experiment myself as i've already redesigned the patterns for my greaves and bazubands a couple of times since making the originals, but it will be some months before i can.

Interesting. The thinner leather simply does not hold up as well when hardened. Adding mass does not change that. Torvaldr's scales work in the lighter weight because of their smaller size. Note that he does not offer bazubands in the same weight leather as his scales. Also, there is an overlap structure involved with the scales, so it's both short spans of leather and multiple layers supporting one another.

The glue takes up space within the matrix of the leather. You may arbitrarily choose to believe that the amount of space it takes up is trivial - I expect that it is a nontrivial volume.

Note that glue "coating the fiber" means it is increasing the dimensions of the fiber and encroaching on the interstitial spaces. Those spaces are not very large, so, say increasing the size of the leather fibers by 10% would make for a significant change in the volume to be filled with wax.

You appear to have interpreted my words as meaning that there is no space for the wax to fill. That is not what I said. I said there would be less space - and indicated I believe it is enough less space to make any benefit doubtful.

There is certainly room for differences of opinion regarding what benefits are involved and what they are worth. I don't consider the added weight to be worth the small improvement in water resistance and a rather transient, if even present, improvement in rigidity.

[Kilkenny]

Looks like we need to start a cuir buoilli guild...once we learn how to spell it. Whenever I get to that word I just wing it. I spell like Lewis and Clarke, who had something like a dozen different spellings of the word Sioux.

That's okay... there wasn't a particular spelling of "bouilli" more popular than others in period, AKAIK. The real question is whether it means stuffed or packed or dipped or boiled or ....

Kel, you might be the person to ask about this. I believe I have run across references to couiir bouilli (by some spelling) relating to the bookbinding industry and seeming, from context, to relate more to an unfinished leather...or something.. I am sure it is not talking about hardened stuff the way we are using it.

This has bugged me for some time, in that there's no real way for me to know what the modern reference is about, and how long it has been used... how many things have we misunderstood because the term had different meanings between one context and another.....

[Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi]

Interesting. The thinner leather simply does not hold up as well when hardened. Adding mass does not change that. Torvaldr's scales work in the lighter weight because of their smaller size. Note that he does not offer bazubands in the same weight leather as his scales. Also, there is an overlap structure involved with the scales, so it's both short spans of leather and multiple layers supporting one another.

The glue takes up space within the matrix of the leather. You may arbitrarily choose to believe that the amount of space it takes up is trivial - I expect that it is a nontrivial volume.

Note that glue "coating the fiber" means it is increasing the dimensions of the fiber and encroaching on the interstitial spaces. Those spaces are not very large, so, say increasing the size of the leather fibers by 10% would make for a significant change in the volume to be filled with wax.

You appear to have interpreted my words as meaning that there is no space for the wax to fill. That is not what I said. I said there would be less space - and indicated I believe it is enough less space to make any benefit doubtful.

There is certainly room for differences of opinion regarding what benefits are involved and what they are worth. I don't consider the added weight to be worth the small improvement in water resistance and a rather transient, if even present, improvement in rigidity.

The argument you make is sound indeed. And i did so interpret your words to mean that they completely fill the interstitial spaces, so thank you for the correction.

I know very well that the arguments over which methods of hardening are best can be made till the cows come home, and generally come down to which process the individual likes the best or is most adept with. At the moment i will admit my own bias to the wax hardening as I personally know Torvaldr and the quality of his work. However I am trying to put said bias aside to give all the forms of hardening an equal try and test them scientifically. I already know that flash boiling causes incredibly brittle scales as mine cracked even during the drying process. What i will try when i have the means and money will be to take individual scales of equal thickness and harden them int he different process then see what stress is required to make an individual crack or break. Also doing before and after measurements of weight.

I am working a hypothesis, about the glue and wax, i've made an assumption based on my own knowledge and will test it, once it is tested will I stand behind or reject the hypothosis. But i thank you for providing a divergent view point, no test is valid unless it is challenged.
Odd

[Kel Rekuta]

Kel, you might be the person to ask about this. I believe I have run across references to couiir bouilli (by some spelling) relating to the bookbinding industry and seeming, from context, to relate more to an unfinished leather...or something.. I am sure it is not talking about hardened stuff the way we are using it.

This has bugged me for some time, in that there's no real way for me to know what the modern reference is about, and how long it has been used... how many things have we misunderstood because the term had different meanings between one context and another.....

Any reference in particular? I've read some crazy stuff in nineteenth century book binding and conservation texts. Talking to modern conservators and restorers is equally frustrating and contradictory. I deal with a few who make a living at it, as well as a parchment maker who dabbles in medieval bookbinding. Ask any one of them what the term cordovan specifically refers to. Just ask a few illuminators to explain the difference between parchment and vellum.

I wouldn't count on the bookbinding community to advance our understanding of medieval usage for the term "cuir boilli." One thing I can assure with absolute confidence - parchment coverings for wood binding panels were not waxed. They were glued on with hide glue, which necessarily means a warm to hot but not boiling hot media. Presumably it would be a thin solution that soaks into the parchment to improve the mechanical bond to wood. That process may be the context referred to.

[Andeerz]

Depending on how you do the glue treatment, the amount of penetration of it might be low enough that it wouldn't actually go too far in. When I did my leather hardening process on the stuff I made, I simply dipped it in the glue solution for a few seconds (like 15 seconds or so) before putting it in the oven. (I think I may have stated before that I didn't, but upon further recollection, I did). The penetration would have been minimal in this case. With a process involving completely soaking the leather in glue solution, the glue probably would have penetrated all the way through and occupied a good deal more of interstitial space between fibers than my process. In this case, it would probably add some mass, though I would imagine not as much as wax would, since most of the weight in water would evaporate out in the case of glue, and the amount of glue used in volume for hardening is less in my experience than with wax. Glues that rely on solvent evaporating out, such as the water-based titebond I use, would definitely be lighter after the solvent evaporates. Wax hardening, by nature, does not lose much if any mass upon solidifying and probably occupies a lot more space between fibers.

Now, whether the amount of weight added by wax or glue is actually significant is another story. I'd imagine it would not be significant at all since a lot of wax-hardened stuff is not noticeably heavier than glue treated or even plain water hardened leather items I've experienced.

Also, I'd imagine wax hardening for armouring purposes, for what it is worth, would likely seldom if ever have been used, since wax hardening would probably make it easier for leather to be cut through than without.

That said, I think the effects of the glue on my piece would have been less pronounced than the glue would have had I soaked the leather through prior to forming. In the process I use, I think the glue serves to add some rigidity and wear resistance as it would with the other method, but I think it would wear out sooner than if I had used the other method.

[Mike J]

OOP, but Minwax makes a wood hardener that is available in most Lowes and Home Depots. It is waterproof once dry. I have successfully used it on leather. Wear rubber gloves, soak the leather and form it. Allow it to dry and Bob’s your uncle.

[Kilkenny]

Any reference in particular? I've read some crazy stuff in nineteenth century book binding and conservation texts. Talking to modern conservators and restorers is equally frustrating and contradictory. I deal with a few who make a living at it, as well as a parchment maker who dabbles in medieval bookbinding. Ask any one of them what the term cordovan specifically refers to. Just ask a few illuminators to explain the difference between parchment and vellum.

I wouldn't count on the bookbinding community to advance our understanding of medieval usage for the term "cuir boilli." One thing I can assure with absolute confidence - parchment coverings for wood binding panels were not waxed. They were glued on with hide glue, which necessarily means a warm to hot but not boiling hot media. Presumably it would be a thin solution that soaks into the parchment to improve the mechanical bond to wood. That process may be the context referred to.

I wish I could make a reference It's one of those things I caught in passing but did not record in any sense I recall it was a modern context, seemed to be someone discussing availability of materials and where to source them, and among the materials apparently obtainable from sources in North Africa was a mention of cour bouilli. Made me wonder what they were talking about, but not curious enough to get me to memorialize it...

I'm primarily curious as to whether the same term (or close enough to cause confusion) might have been used in more than one craft to describe more than one kind of thing - specifically here, whether book binders also refer to cuir boilli but are not talking about hardened leather....

Could be an entirely red herring, could be a clarification worth understanding. It might be comparable to understanding that the 17th c. recipe for jacking boots is for waterproofing, not really for hardening ...

[Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi]

mike j
Any chance you might have some pictures of leather you have hardened this way? do you dunk it or paint it on? how brittle does it become?

[Maelgwyn]

My wife the dyer tells me that medieval dye recipes that call for "boiling" will often work if you get the solution steaming hot but fail if the solution gets to a full boil. I have used "hot" rabbit glue and soaked the leather until bubbles stopped coming out...is that "boiling"? What does "boiling" or "bouli" mean to a medieval craftsman? I think it is an excellent question and we are not likely to get a definitive answer any time soon.

When dyeing I dilute the dye about 1/2 or 2/3 with denatured alcohol

I was just thinking about trying that! Thanks for posting this, Malek.

[Halvgrimr]

Most of you folks are talking about items that need to be formed into complex shapes.
I am about to do a new set of leather lamellar (yes I know its not period but its an experiment)
I have never experimented with water hardening, would it be overkill for lamellar (which needs to be somewhat flexible)

How about the Tightbond/glue method?
I have owned a set of Duke Gavin's hardened arms and they were rock hard, I fear lamellar being that hard would bind to much.

Also, a LONG time ago I did a set of leather lamellar. When I did so I just used the dip method and let the lames dry by hanging each one on a clothes line. I want to try the 'throw them in the oven' technique this time. Are we talking minutes? hours?

Thanks in advance for any input.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

3ish hours for the entire set (about an hour a batch). I have a set of leather lamellar I made from scrap saddle skirting. I found that putting a mild curve into them (like 1/4-1/2" across a 3-4" wide piece) helped them both lay better as well as evenly bake without too much scorching (used an old cookie sheet, as I didn't care about scorching).

The biggest thing I haven't heard anyone mention is that using the Titebond method, it doesn't seem to hit full rigidity until a few days later. So I wouldn't lace it up right away.

[Ismaels-Legacy]

Just out of curiosity, but has anyone tried submerging leather in water/hide glue mixtures?

[Russ Mitchell]

Yes, in conjunction with baking. Maelgwyn showed it to me when I went down to visit him for the day once. Works well.

[Maelgwyn]

Hmm...I'll need to pick up a cheap pan at a garage sale to try it, but I thing a 180 degree glue solution soak without baking would be interesting.

Halvgrimr, my first effort at rabbit-glue hardening was a set of lamellar scales for my shoulder armour. They are starting to wear out now after about 7 years of hard use. I curved each scale to give it strength. They still retain some flex but much of the flexibility of lamellar armour comes from the lacing pattern. If you hang each row from the one above rather than tightly lacing each row to the next you get much more mobility and it packs smaller with minimal reduction of protection. I made up a tray with some narrow wood strips on it to support the curves and baked each batch for about 2 hours as I recall. The simple shape and support allowed me to ignore them during that time, rather than checking and adjusting the shape every 15 minutes as I typically do with vambraces and such.

[Gregoire de Lyon]

I am about to do a new set of leather lamellar (yes I know its not period but its an experiment)

That would depend on the period:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=145942

[Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi]

gregoire,
Thank you for sharing that thread, it is of great interest to me personally. This will solve many arguments.

A thought. I have seen many people argue that a likely for of hardening for leather was to "half tan" the leather. If we could figure out the properties of half-tanned leather then maybe we could focus on a hardening method that produces results similar to the half-tanning. While it would be nice to use actual half tanned leather i hear it is rare and expensive.
Odd

[Russ Mitchell]

Basically because there's no market for it stateside, Oddbjorn. Actually making the stuff is about the simplest thing on earth.