Panzerhosen

[Baron Alcyoneus]

I picked up a book this weekend, just for this picture.

Juan de Albadia, Archangel Michael c1470-90



Quilted hosen (down to the stirrups) with mail sewn to cover the front and side of the knees.

[veltez]

Any idea what period that was from or meant to depict? Looks interesting to me.

[Len Parker]

I was just looking at these http://keep4u.ru/imgs/b/080609/94/94760 ... 40dcd6.jpg I recently saw a repro of these, I believe without the maille. I'll see if I can find them.

[Konstantin the Red]

And doesn't that look to you like under-plate wear?

[veltez]

To me it looks like thats just what he may have worn. it doesnt make any sense for him to have no lower body protection on, while wearing a BP and arms, unless it was an artisitc thing to balance the image out. other wards he would just be under dressed.

[lorenzo2]

I have seen pics of an existing pair of armored hose on a german site with tiny plates sewn inside. It may be depicting something similar. The site I saw it on is the one with all the links to collections in german museums, can't remember the name, something like bildindex.de?

[James B.]

Have you seen these?

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... rhose.html

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=139276

[Mac]

Follow the two links that James has posted.

The Myarmoury link http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=139276 gets you to some good pictures, but the discussion does not come to the correct conclusion about the object. I have copied the pics over to this thread.

The link to Will's blog http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... rhose.html has some other pictures of these things in art. Will concludes (correctly) that these hosen are not a supplement to plate armor, but an alternative.

Here is a pic of the medial aspect of the garment.



Here is a pic of the lateral aspect.



If you look closely at the pictures of the (formerly?) extant garment, you will see that the wrinkles and folds only occur at the quilt lines. This is because the interstices are filled with small plates. It is sort of like a brigandine, except the plates do not overlap. You will also note that the mail strips are on the front of the knee, and not the back. This is, of course, what you would want if the hosen were your primary defense, and not a supplement to plate. Note; that some of the mail has been lost, but you can see where it used to be sewn.





These would make a really cool project! For SCA use, you would have to use solid knee cops, but there are examples of that very thing in contemporary art. The internal plates of the hosen would have to be of a material that would not rust. The originals were probably tinned, but you could use stainless or galvanized to good effect.

Mac

[Russ Mitchell]

Absolutely fantastic, Mac. This is the kind of stuff I would never even have dreamt of existing.

[Len Parker]

On the the front side of the hose, look on it's left knee (right side of image). It looks like a metal scale exposed at the top of the maille, also the top of another one partially exposed on the edge at the upper right of the knee. Am I seeing right?

[Mac]

Len,

I'm not sure I can see what you are seeing. If you are one of those guys who can use a computer drawing program, perhaps you can indicate the places in question with circles and arrows.

What I am sure I can see it this. If you look at this image you can see at least two places where the outer layer of fabric is worn through along one of the vertical line of the scales. The places are along the sharp fold above the right knee (which is on the right side in this pic) just above the knee, and about a hand's breath above that. In these places, the scales edges of the scales are clearly visible.



Mac

[Mac]

Absolutely fantastic, Mac. This is the kind of stuff I would never even have dreamt of existing.

It's pretty wild stuff, ain't it!?

Mac

[Len Parker]

Mac, I'm not one of those guys, yet The one on the sharp edge sticking out was the one I was talking about. On that same knee, I thought there might be an entire scale showing on the upper right corner of the maille strip, but it might be just some exposed material.
I always thought these images were proof of painted scale armour on legs, but it now looks like material covered scale.
http://utu.morganlibrary.org/medren/sin ... A000110833
http://utu.morganlibrary.org/medren/sin ... A000110890
http://utu.morganlibrary.org/medren/sin ... A000110741

[Mac]

Len,

Thanks for those links.
It looks like this is one of those things that you can see-without-really-seeing for years, and then one day...BAM! You notice that they're everywhere!

Mac

[Tom B.]

I just stumbled upon a T-forum page with a bunch of images with Panzerhosen like leg armour and a couple of reproductions.

http://vasco.io.ua/album410151

[Tom B.]

also check out Ernst's Panzerarms thread

[Myron]

What's everyone's best guess on the size of the plates? I count about 13 plates to a column on the thigh from the middle of the knee up. My thigh is about 13" at that point, so maybe 1" x .5" if the owner had a similar build (5'9")?

I have piles of 3/4" wide pallet strapping laying around. I'm tempted to make some not that I need another project right now...

[Zetheros]

Do these plated trousers take the place of chainmail? It would be interesting to see which would be lighter.

[Mac]

Zeth,

It looks like sometimes they are taking the place of mail, and other times they are standing in for plate.

Their wight is going to depend largely on how thick the plates are. It would be easy to get carried away and make them too heavy. Myron's idea of using pallet banding sounds like a good one.

Mac

[Mac]

What's everyone's best guess on the size of the plates? I count about 13 plates to a column on the thigh from the middle of the knee up. My thigh is about 13" at that point, so maybe 1" x .5" if the owner had a similar build (5'9")?

I have piles of 3/4" wide pallet strapping laying around. I'm tempted to make some not that I need another project right now...

Myron,

Pallet strapping sounds like a pretty good choice of material. It looks to me like 1/2" is a better bet than 3/4" if you were going to make them just like the Munich pair. The ones in the manuscript pics look wider, but it's hard to know if that is true, or just for the artist's convenience.

I would recommend giving each plate a very slight curve by hammering the back a bit. They will be stronger as well as laying more smoothly around your leg. You will also want to make sure that the corners are all nice and round and the edges are smooth. That's a lot of work, but it will go a long way toward insuring the longevity of the final result.

Mac

[Mac]

This is my favorite pic from the Russian language page that Tom linked to.



Mac

[Myron]

Thanks for the input Mac. I think if I do it I would make them 3/4" wide for simplicity's sake and about 1.5" - 2" long. I was thinking of cutting the corners on a diagonal like Jack plates, but I you're right in saying they need some more rounding with a file or some sandpaper. I imagine a jig for slightly dishing them wouldn't be too hard to make. At least you don't have to punch holes in them as well.

With some quick math I think I would need about 700 .75" x 2" plates. That's about 115' of strapping. I might need to scrounge a little more but that number seems plausible. Making little plates is something I can do on lunch break at work. I'm thinking of using a canvas outer and linen inner lining, with maybe a thin layer of felt or wool as padding.

I bet you could use some glue to tack the plates down to the lining layer and then stitch between them...

And now I already talked myself into trying it.

[Ernst]

For documentation, the David and Goliath image is from the Psalter and Hours of Alfonso V of Aragon, British Library (doh), Add. MS 28962, fo. 81v, Spain (probably Aragon), 1436-1443.

Manuscript: http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/FullDispla ... d_MS_28962
Goliath folio with zoom: http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.asp ... 8962_f081v

BL Add MD 28962 fo81v.jpg (16.04 KiB) Viewed 13432 times

[tiredWeasel]

Panzerhosen with mail patches and Panzerarms ^^
Lots of Panzers :p

The knee cops are interesting. These are either extra steel ones sewed to the garment or made in the same (or similar) fashion like the hose.
Or they could be hardened leather

[Ernst]

The indenture for issues to the fleet in 1337 includes 152 aketons, at least ninetyeight
of them again covered with white cloth. Another form is the aketon of plates,
evidently an aketon incorporating iron plates, which is unnoticed in the history of
armour. One was covered in green leather, twelve more without detail.
------------
Another type of aketon, the
‘aketoner’ appears in the later section of Fleet’s account; again, unnoticed in the
history of armour, its exact form is unknown, and was cognate with the aketon of
plates, as Mildenhall’s later account shows.
------------
v aketoner’ de plata coopert’ de panno diversis coloribus
------------
Most of these garments remained in the privy wardrobe for some time. The
reiteration of them in the various accounts occasionally sheds a little colour. For
example, the two jupons were decorated with the old arms of England in Snaith’s
account, and one of the aketoners of plate survived as a doublet, of cloth of gold of
Flanders with sleeves of plates riveted with gilt headed rivets.
This may, in fact
reveal the true nature of the aketoners, as conventional quilted aketons with plate
sleeves, like the jacks with plate sleeves of the sixteenth century.

In 1322 the
inventory of Robert of Flanders included aketons of plate and pairs of plate.

These "aketoners" would seem to save a step in armoring. Instead of an aketon, sleeves of mail, and a pair of plates, the plates could be added by sewing or nailing (brigandine work) directly to the aketon requiring only aketoner and pair of plates. The option of nailing of stitching the plates in like the later jack of plates would explain many of the hose/chausses in Bodly MS 264 Alexander Romance. The construction seems identical to the panzerhose and panzerarms.

Examples tagged at Manuscript Miniatures:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/ ... anzerhose"


Perhaps the brigandine is derived from this style of armor, aketoners of plate rather than the pair of plates?

[Tom B.]

Do you guys think the lace up greave depicted in this manuscript are of the "panzer type" or are they leather?

Manuscript: BNF Nouvelle acquisition française 5243 Guiron le Courtois
Folio: 32v
Dating: 1370-1380
From: Milan, Italy
Holding Institution: Bibliothèque Nationale

BNF Nouvelle acquisition française 5243 Guiron le Courtois (manuscript miniatures page)

[Ernst]

Looks more like leather to me, Tom.

[Mac]

I vote "leather" as well. Same goes for the vambraces.

Mac

[Myron]

I've cut and shaped about 150 2" x 3/4" plates so far. I think I was way off on my quick math earlier and didn't allow for the stitching. I probably need about 400 plates. Next I need to make a small test piece to figure out the stitching.

[Mac]

You go, guy! We are all watching.

Mac

[Myron]

Here's my test piece so far. My hand sewing isn't the greatest yet, but I bet that will improve after this project. it took about 20 minutes to stitch. I just used some scrap canvas and some blue thread I had around. For the real thing I will use linen thread and some sort of heavy linen. I tried to glue the plates down with some PVA glue before sewing to hold them in place to save time. It worked ok, I am going to try tacky glue next time.

[Mac]

I have found Wm. Booths's 12 oz "ticken" to be pretty strong, and not at all hard to get a needle through. http://www.wmboothdraper.com/Linen/inde ... _index.htm It's a bit pricey, but you will less than two yards, and there's little to be gained in skimping on materials when you will have so much work in the project.

For gluing the plates in place while your work, you might try a spray adhesive.

Mac

[Myron]

Mac,

Thanks for the link for the fabric. That was my thinking also to use the proper materials. $60 or so on linen is all I will be in for, the steel was free. I might get to working on the pattern for the hose this weekend. My experience with hose so far is 1 pair of joined hose so it may take some effort to make it right.

I am trying to decide whether to go with a full foot or make it more like a stirrup as seen in the Juan de Albadia painting at the top of the thread.

[jenzinas]

You might find it easier to sew channels first. I've found that long straight lines are easier and faster than short ones.

[Kristoffer]

I agree with sewing channels and then stick the plates inside the channels. I do like the "brick" pattern even though making them lined up would be a lot faster by first making channels, then stick in a row of plates, sew a straight line across, another row of plates, etc..