Panzerhosen

[Mac]

Sewing the verticals first might be convenient, and then again it might be a pain in the butt to stuff plates down into them if they are tight, or the plate is a long way from the edge.

The brick thing is really essential to the look, and presumably the function, of this sort of armor.

Mac

[jenzinas]

You could do that if you did alternating channels. So fill every second channel and then stitch around being careful to not stitch through on the empty ones.

[Myron]

I think for the armor to be effective the gap between plates needs to be as small as possible and it has to be offset to stop cuts. Not sure how effective it would be against a thrust. Sewing channels and then stuffing them with plates might work. Either way, some of the stitching will run back on itself. It won't stand out as much with a natural thread that matches the fabric.

Do you all think the linen should be cut on the bias? I don't know if it will matter with all the plates.

[jenzinas]

Sorry, I think I wasn't clear.
Fill every second channel and stitch them in.
Then go in and fill the alternate channels with whatever offset and stitch them in.
Then repeat.

With the lacing at the lower calf, the cutting on the bias is probably less important, but the fabric of the originals certainly looks like it was cut on the bias.

[Mac]

It's pretty clear that this one was cut on the bias.



It may not make a difference in the armored areas, but it will make difference at the knees. Besides, you will want make up at least one or two generations or muslin mockups, and those aught to be cut on the bias. All things considered, I think it best to go bias.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Myron,

What are your plans for the knees?
Are you doing something like the ones in the photos with strips of mail or are you planning something more exotic like in some of the manuscripts?

[Andeerz]

Woooooow!!! This thread is amazeballs.

I think I agree with Xtracted and jenzinas. Except, I would suggest maintaining the brick pattern. Just a hunch, but I think it might be an intentional design feature that is more than cosmetic. It would take a significant amount more of time, but I don't think it would be any more technically difficult in any case.

A question to everyone: what might the purpose of the offset/brick pattern be? I think it might be important for keeping the garment a bit more stiff length-wise, and preventing it from becoming an accordion, no, which I think could present a problem with how the plates might move while the leg moves? I dunno... just throwing that out there. What do you guys think?

[Ernst]

I think for the armor to be effective the gap between plates needs to be as small as possible and it has to be offset to stop cuts. Not sure how effective it would be against a thrust.

I think Myron has a valid conclusion for the purpose of the running bond pattern.

[Andeerz]

Ooops... I made that last post without realizing there was a second page to the thread! In any case, yeah. That seems to be the obvious answer.

[Myron]

I haven't made any progress, my grandfather passed away last week and I spend the last couple days travelling. I haven't thought too much yet about the knees. I will probably go for something more exotic as long as I can pull it off with my ability level.

Panzerhosen don't seem like they will really provide much protection for SCA fighting other than leaving an interesting bruise pattern. It would look good to wear for a tournament where you aren't going to get hit too much, but I don't think I would use them for my normal kit. I'm not a big guy, not a great fighter, and use a tiny shield, so I usually like something solid on my legs.

I'm determined to finally finish my Almain splints before I go too far with the panzerhosen. I will try to get a muslin pattern going as soon as I can and keep making plates.

[Ernst]

On the XIV century European Armour Facebook group, Holger Heid has posted this detailed photograph:
https://scontent-dft4-3.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=59BBB2F7

The bias-cut fabric is clearly seen, (though not on the computer model). Is this because these are hosen, or for strength when stitching the plates?

[Mac]

I have been told recently that these hosen are currently in Ingelstadt.

It's good to see a close up that shows the plates. Perhaps that will settle the argument as to whether they exist.


Mac

[Tom B.]

This is a cross post from the Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments III: The Legs thread:

this Panzerhose is now on display in the Bavarian Army Museum in Ingolstadt. It reopened around 3 Weeks ago and now they also show their Coat of Plates (found 2002 in Passau).
They also show X-ray photographs of the Panzerhosen.
It's propably possible to reconstruct it, if you could visit the museum, as you can get very close to it from different angles and can see the stichtings etc.

Excellent!

It's good to see the X-ray pic. I remember having a hard time trying to convince everyone that they really did have iron plates sewn into them. Now, it is clear and undeniable.



I wonder if we will ever get people to understand that these are armor in their own right, and not something that goes on under plate.

Mac

[RenJunkie]

Do these legs and arms (On Ernst's thread) only exist in a German or Scandinavian context in the 16th and early 17th century? I'm loving that Gustavus had Panzerarms....lol And would they be...out of date (in terms of battlefield stuff)? Even kings can have a preference for out of date stuff if it's hidden under clothing and effective.

On the flip side...wonder if pikemen wore at least the arms on occasion as personally-purchased gear? Given the style of fighting, seems like it might be useful once you build the endurance with it.

I love threads like this. Oddball armour is the best!

Thanks!
Chris

[Sean M]

From Roland Warzecha: There is an article on the Panzerhose in Ingolstadt (with scaled pattern drawing) in: Ansgar Reiß and Tobias Schönauer, Plattenrock, Buckler & Conquistador – Aus der Schatzkammer des Bayerischen Armeemuseums (Bayerisches Armeemuseum, Ingolstadt, 2021) ISBN-13 978-3-96049-090-6
paperback copy free pdf

[RenJunkie]

Thanks, Sean!

Chris