The Armour Archive

This is an earnest plea for advice from anyone who might have input on this..

First off, I love all of my clients for letting me make a living doing what I love, but the truth is that most private clients can't afford movie grade quality items so I feel like I will never be able to really explore the extent of my abilities just doing that. I'm always limited by budget for how detailed and 'cool' I can make something.

I'm starting up a new business called Imperial Armories to start selling standard stock items at conventions and ren fests to build up enough funds to have the freedom to pursue other interested and the main one I want to do is work in films.

I'm a rather private person and I've spent most of my life flying solo. It wasn't wasted, I spent absurd amounts of time studying many different fields and teaching myself various skills, but as a result I haven't done much of any networking. I have really no connections. I've been described as over-talented and under-exposed and not meaning to be conceited but I think that's the gist of it. The film industry seems like such an exclusive club where you have to know someone to get in.

I want to make a name for myself, I don't mind working for it. I usually work at least 12 hours a day, often more anyway. I really want to be a key player making armor/props/sets for the Wheel of Time movies or series whenever they come around someday. I need to be in a good position by then to have any chance of that. But my ambitions don't end there, I have many things I want to do with my life but if I could be a part of that then I would be well on my way to living a life fulfilled.

I'm sorry to pose such a question when I've barely been active on the forum, but do any of you lovely people out there have any tips for me? Or have any connections I can talk to? I figure it doesn't hurt to ask.

And just to clarify, I primarily want to make armor and other leather and metal items but I have a great fascination with architecture and would love making sets. Plus I love making a variety things so I would have great fun making props of all sorts. I can work with about any medium out there.

If you're in the US and around the west coast, come with us to Chris Gilman's tour of the Global Effects inc. workshops! It's on the 25th.
Here's the link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=142255

I heard there's something going on around the west coast too.

I'm also searching for more contacts, so I know how you feel.

The 25th of this month, so, less than 4 days away? haha, fml.
It does seem like a great opportunity though. It's quite a ways away and all my funds are tied at the moment, I'd need a little more time than that to procure funds and time off.

Sounds like you want to work for something like WETA. That would be a cool job indeed Doesn't hollywood have something similar? (assuming you don't want to move to New Zealand).

I'd love to be a part of WETA but yeah, I also think LA would be a little more practical. Immigration laws are tough for NZ I hear.

Yeah, I'd suggest sending a portfolio of your best works (ideally about a dozen pieces reflected in multiple high-quality printed images) along with a work resume to the various prop companies, such as Global Effects and WETA Workshops. Considering the nature of the film industry, it will be next to impossible for your to dip your toe in without being involved in one of the established groups. The tight scheduling and intense work-load required for most film and television costuming work makes it unreasonable for individual craftsmen to be considered for jobs. If they are, it is through specialized contracts usually filled by such companies as those mentioned previously.

For example, I know that Chris Gilman will often incorporate the talents of individual craftsmen in the SCA through commissions coming directly from film producers to make special orders of goods he is unable to produce in his shop, or can outsource for lower costs than his shop overhead. Their skills are both a service to him and the show and also contribute to the growth of their own businesses. It's a nice symbiosis.

But, Chris and his shop also specialize in the production of armor in all imaginable materials. It's important to note that a majority of costume armor is plastic and based off molded originals for ease of production and lowering of cost, greatly reducing the overall spending for production but requiring extremely specialized workshops full of vacuform machines, molding materials, etc. WETA used real chain mail for all of the main characters in Lord of the Rings, for example, but had the novel idea of using PVC pipe cut into links for light-weight mail armor for hundreds of the extras involved in the filming. That's about as simple as the magic can get, materially!

There are a ton of things to consider depending on how you want your inroads into the industry, Prince. Your work is excellent, but you must realize that joining an assembled team of craftsmen and moving to a new location (i.e. Hollywood) will be almost necessary if you wish to contribute greatly to the process of creating film props!

-Gerhard

DarkHose leather... (I can't remember his AA Handle) does work for Candian filming.

Don't know how helpful they can be since there in the same business as you want to get into but Sword in the Stone armory, based out of Burbank CA, works with Hollywood and were really nice at their open house/demo. If you contact them they might have some advice on how to start up. Though it might have been they were at the right place and right time 15 years ago.

Prince wrote:The 25th of this month, so, less than 4 days away? haha, fml.
It does seem like a great opportunity though. It's quite a ways away and all my funds are tied at the moment, I'd need a little more time than that to procure funds and time off.

I know it's short notice and all...you don't neccessarily have to go to that workshop (perhaps it's best you don't, there's going to be a ton of folks clamoring for attention there), but it sounds like Chris Gilman is exactly the person you need to meet and talk to. Happily, you can pm him, he seems fairly accessible.

I'm guessing that you would do well to get a job working for him or a company like his, and go from there. Or stay there, working for someone already well-established in the industry. That way you could focus on your production work, and not spend time running a business.

A portfolio does a lot you might be supprized who all works in the film industry with a presance on the archive or the SCA.

I'm seeing a lot of advice from people who don't have much to do with the industry one way or another. On the other hand, I do.
If you're unprepared for your first step to be uprooting your life and moving to where the big fish swim, then best bet is to contact your *local* filmmakers.
Indie film is freaking everywhere right now, with more and more small startups doing commercial work and short (internet) films.

Obviously, they will not have the budget to buy your work. On the other hand, they don't have to buy your work just for you to get your work on film. And back on the first hand, their *customers* will be able to afford your prices.

Every business that has a knight as its mascot is a potential customer, and all you need is something that works as an example in order to make your pitch. A pitch that might look something like, "a full suit of armor that pushes your limits, to be used as the centerpiece of a series of ten to twenty commercials over the next five years." -A mattress warehouse could afford to swing at a pitch like that. At that level you're not even throwing hard, but that's the kind of work you're looking for, isn't it?
After a certain point, having made a name for yourself among your friends-cum-business associates, made a little money, and gotten your work out in front of the public... new work starts coming in as people begin to make plans based around your abilities. And you can make your own plans based on how that shakes out.

Thanks to everyone for the advice so far.
I'm not worried about uprooting, I do actually have every intention of getting out to LA sometime within the next several years. I've been planning to make that feasible by launching a new business that I hope can be self sustainable in a few years with a trained crew traveling to events. And ideally the proceeds from that will make a transition feasible. I've got a pretty hefty shop setup and it will cost a lot for the necessary space out there so I can't afford to just wing it at the moment. I'm working towards it every day though. And I plan to start networking in earnest as I start taking on new conventions and ren fests too. I'm hoping that will be a good start.

I have definitely considered sending out some portfolios and perhaps I should go ahead with that. Couldn't hurt.

Sent an email to Chris, looking forward to seeing what feedback he might have for me.

There are a lot of companies/owners who have been at the right place at the right time but to be at the right place you usually have to work pretty hard to be in that position in the first place. What I've learned so far is you have to make your own luck.

I have done some film work in the past. Mostly ACW (American Civil War) props. That was in the late 80's and early 90's when the focus was on Civil War history. I was lucky. I had a friend of a friend recommend my work. I did work for Killer Angel Productions when they filmed "Gettysburg" locally. Most of my work was sub contracted through another vendor, who is a friend. I also did work through another friend who specializes in Revolutionary War and War of 1812. Most of that work went to him then to the production company that handled the props for "The Patriot".

In my case, I was at the right place, at the right time, and knew people who are considered "experts" in their fields.

As many have said, I would get with Chris Gilman, he does phenominal work and has for many years. He could guide you along in that path or use your services...

You could try talking to the folks at either Schmitthenner Armory or The Inner Bailey; both have done work for major productions if I'm not mistaken.

Destichado wrote:I'm seeing a lot of advice from people who don't have much to do with the industry one way or another. On the other hand, I do.

And was any of the advice given previous to yours particularly wrong... Or do you just like to point out that you've worked in film?

-Gerhard

You know the story about the French chef who traded recipes with soldiers returning from India? First one he got was for Tiger Vindaloo. Step one: Kill a tiger. Gee, thanks.

If you can kill a tiger... well shit, more power to you. Go make Tiger Vindaloo. But if you *can't* kill a tiger, and you still want Tiger Vindaloo, what then?

You told the man to go kill a tiger. I told him, what then. Turns out, the guy wants to go kill a tiger, so might not need the what then to get his Vindaloo.

Prince,
Well I have spent the last 30 years here in LA making props and costumes for film, so I think I may qualify as someone who can give you an idea of what you could expect here in LA. I did not get your email, but I had a look at your work and it's very nice. The prospects for work in LA may be limited for your skill set however. When working on a film, most often you are just a technician/ craftsperson, not an artist. You are working for someone else, who has already designed what it is your building.
So the biggest skill you need is to be able to make anything in any style in a particular material. As an example, your leather armour looks cool, but the style and technique is a bit too "Renn Faire" to be applied to most films. Fantasy costumes for film are more often sculpted, molded and cast from some type of rubber or plastic. There are companies that make leather items for film, however they are most often replicas of period items (gun belts, chaps, whips, and some fantasy armour elements) The key here is to be able to capture the look and feel of the original piece and/or a wide variety of styles.

Your metal work looks good and making swords and knives for film happens often, but they are most often made in aluminum, not steel, and most often, you are copying a real “off the shelf” knife. So making some examples in aluminum would be good. Best would be making a copy of an existing steel blade to show you can duplicate an existing piece.
There is work to be found, but it may be very limited, on the other hand, you may get here at just the right time and a shop is gearing up for a film that needs your skills. I don't know how other shop owners feel, but I rarely hire someone from out of town (unless their skills are very unique and perfect for the job) because projects are often too short to wait for a guy to get here and find a place to live.

Here is a list of shops that may have projects that could use your skills:
Hand Prop Room (HPR) Rental & fabrication, general props, with a full service shop
Independent Studio Services (ISS) Rental & fabrication General props, with a full service shop
Sword in the Stone, one man shop, mainly known for swords and armour
History for Hire, Rental & some fabrication of mainly 19th & 20th century props, small shop
Global Effects (my shop) Rental & fabrication of pre 17th and sci fi props and costume, full service shop.
Western Costume, One of the largest costume rental houses in the US with all types of costumes, tailor shop
Costume Rental Corp (CRC) Costume rental, mainly contemporary & military clothes

Plus there are dozens of smaller companies and makeup effects shops (big and small), which on occasion do costume or prop jobs requiring leather work.
But as I said, your skill sets are not the main stream skills and there are many established people already out here filling those positions. WETA was mentioned, but keep in mind, they have had only a few HUGE, Fantasy films that needed “traditional” skills, but like many other shops all over the world that do work for film, fantasy leatherwork is a limited, requirement on most films. My advice is to send resume’s and stay in touch once or twice a year, because there is always a chance that a project will come along and a shop will want to hire you for an extended period. Expect pay for such a job to be between $15 to $35/ hr. depending on how much they need you.

Good luck,

Hi Chris, thank you for responding. When I emailed you I used the email link on your profile Chris@globaleffects.com

Anyway, to respond to what you said, I would say I don't claim any particular skill sets. The 'ren fest feel' you see is there because most of them are going to be worn at ren-fests and cons. I can do any genre and in sort of theme you can think of. It's true that I prefer 'traditional' work because I feel it is genuine and authentic but I also understand movies have budgets for enormous quantities of stuff and I would also have a lot of fun making sculpts.

And I can also work with probably any medium. I've got a lot of money invested toward leather and metal so that's what I've produced for a living so far, but I've dabbled in just about everything. And much more than just crafts too. I know a little about a lot of things. I know I have to prove myself and I'm not worried about that at all, but getting to the spot to where I can do so, that's what I'm walking towards now in earnest.

Starting out I don't expect to be top gun or anything, I'm happy to work my way up. But eventually, I definitely want to be a creative lead of some sort. I don't know how far up I would go because my ambition says don't stop till the top but the artist in me wants to be involved in the nitty gritty hands-on and design processes. I don't know if those worlds are exclusive.

As I said, one of my dreams is to be a part of the Wheel of Time movie/series. Universal picked up the rights and who knows when it will go into production but I want to be set up in the industry by that time to be a part of it's conception because I know the story has the potential to be one hell of a fantasy film, or even a good TV series. And I don't want to sit around wishing for it, a goal without a plan of action is a day-dream. So if hitting up the various established suppliers to make myself known is where you suggest I start, then I'll give it a go.

Thank you for your input.

Prince,
I can tell you even if you were here in LA, established in the industry, having any meaningful impact on a specific project is a long shot. I would not get my hopes up. In my 30 years I have never had a "meaningful" affect on a project I was "in love" with. (Starship Troopers, Spiderman, Medieval movies...) In nearly all cases, there are way too many people "above" me in production for me to have any major impact on the shows design or story direction. Now there are always exceptions to a rule, and I have had many fulfilling projects and have influenced and designed major pieces for films, but on a whole, the films look and direction are decided by others. Unless you are a production designer, Costume designer, Art Director, you will have little impact, and these positions take years of networking and dedication to secure. Pushing your ideas or “the way you see it” It is something you have to be very careful of doing, as the people who you are working for often don’t want to have ideas pushed on them, even if you think that’s why they are coming to you. As an example, On Starship Troopers, I pointed out to the Art Director, or Production designer that I thought it was a huge mistake to make this film without the Powered Armour (A major element in the book if you have not read it) and we had experience and techniques that could make it economically, his response, “Well it’s not your movie, is it?”
We didn’t do anything on the film (other than a prototype of a new armour, after they had already made 300 suits, that were too heavy.)
You say you are more comfortable with “'traditional' work”; in the film industry traditional work needs to be versatile enough to capture any period or style and the work I see on your site is too stylistically the same to demonstrate this ability. I would suggest you pick some different period pieces and try to duplicate the style of those pieces as close as possible. These could be historic pieces or pieces from other films, anything that shows you can “copy” a style or art direction. Remember, you are diving into a very big ocean of talent and it is easy to get overlooked if your skills don’t stand out.

As for budgets, don’t get dollar signs in your eyes, the budgets on some shows may be high for some things, but there are very few big budget shows making hundreds of things. Then when there are these shows, they most often go to the established shops, because it isn’t always the skill of the individual worker, but the reputation and ability of the shop to provide the requested items on time, on budget, and they way the designers wants (needs) them to look. Because as a designer, he or she has been hired to give the production designer and Director what they want. The cost of living here is high and the hourly rates are what I listed above and you need to plan 2 to 3 months of being without work in your first 6 months here. I’m not trying to scare you, but I have had many recent graduates from “the makeup effects” school come to me for jobs and they don’t have the needed skills and I know they have trouble finding work with decent pay. Most often you will find work on low budget productions where the hours a rough and the pay is minimal. But, you have to start somewhere and I’m sure most of us have gone through it. I know I did.

I understand all of your points and I appreciate your input. The things you warn me of I'm not concerned with. And not because of aloofness. I simply have no problem doing whatever it takes to get to where I want to be. And besides that, nothing worth doing is ever easy anyway.

"production designer, Costume designer, Art Director" Sounds like those are where I need to aim for because even though I have the ability to emulate, I will always prefer to create original work or oversee it and guide it.

Anyway, I don't mind starting from the very bottom; it would be an enjoyable experience. But at the same time, I won't plan to start at the bottom either, time is limited and there are many things I want to do.

At this particular point in time my business making custom armor and costumes is doing well. I've got more work than I can handle even with two full time hands working with me. Also, I'm launching a new business to start traveling to ren fests and conventions and it's an expensive start-up so I honestly couldn't afford to buy a place in LA at this point (and rent is such a waste of money) But if that does well, I think within the next few years I will be in a position to get out to LA and I hope to meet some big names at the conventions along the way to help with networking which would start laying the foundation. And then also in the meanwhile I'll be sending out some portfolios and trying to keep in touch with some of the shops like you suggested.

So my question at this point would be; What skills and qualities are looked for in the aforementioned roles that would in fact be able to have creative influences on films? This will give me an idea of where I should channel my efforts along the way.
Thanks again

Illustration skills, perhaps a degree in architectural design or art.
You need to improve you design and illustration skills.
Here are some examples of what is being done now:
http://www.designyourway.net/blog/inspi ... on-design/
http://blog.fidmmuseum.org/.a/6a01156f4 ... 1fd970c-pi
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IfPmF3py6hk/T ... ches_2.jpg
Here is a blog that seems to be primarily about production design artwork:
http://filmsketchr.blogspot.com/2010_07_01_archive.html
Also, go to IMDB and look up art director, production designer, costume designer look for the top names in the business, then research articles about them and try to find how they got to where they are and look at examples of their work.

If you going to send out portfolios, it will be better to limit your photos to one or two examples of any one style of piece, if you have too many photos of the same style of thing a potential employer is going to view you as a “one trick pony”. So you may need to make some portfolio examples.
Here is an example of “copying” a style:
These are 19th C. cowboy cuffs I made for my brother, that are close to originals.


In any interview you will likely be asked how long it took you to make the item, be honest. For me, the biggest thing that will piss me off is finding out, during the job I hired you for, that you don't know how to do what you claimed to know or it takes you much longer to make something compared to what you said it would take. And above all, DO NOT put anything in your portfolio you didn’t make. This is a “small town” and it will bite you in the ass one day. (Yes, I have had someone show me their portfolio and it had examples of things, I made in it!) I hire people to do a job, based on what they say they can do and my timeline is tight and I can't afford to waste time redoing something because the craftsperson f'd it up. Also, if you get hred, don't be a flake, nothing will destroy your career faster than being late, not being able to work late or on weekends, or not showing up.

I admit I haven't practiced my illustration skills. I can do well enough for basic sketches for my clients but I think my actual design abilities really aren't bad. I'm good with coming up with concepts, and improving upon existing ones. Though there's always room for improvement of course.

I have actually done some replicas to varying degrees. The more time I have the more attention to detail I can get and I let my buyers pick a budget. They can get something stylized, down to full replica. So far I don't have any completed projects I would consider actual 100% match.

But these I would say are fairly close, what's your honest appraisal?:
Witch hunter hat http://azmal.deviantart.com/art/Witchhu ... 7557&qo=15
Original http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/ ... ook-01.jpg
Cat woman mask http://azmal.deviantart.com/art/Catwoma ... 7557&qo=55
Original http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/ ... 24-768.jpg

Plus some others that you might recognize
Conan Headband http://azmal.deviantart.com/art/Conan-H ... 7557&qo=57
Conan Belt http://azmal.deviantart.com/art/Conan-B ... 7557&qo=54
Conan Sword (Work in progress) http://azmal.deviantart.com/gallery/5201871#/d4gek6k
Vincent Valentine Gauntlet http://azmal.deviantart.com/art/Vincent ... 7557&qo=77
Zelda Armor (brass repousse) http://azmal.deviantart.com/art/Zelda-T ... 7557&qo=13

Is this the inspiration for the cuffs you made? Closest I could find.
http://www.icollector.com/images/1198/2 ... 6_1_lg.jpg

Thanks for the portfolio tip, I definitely don't want them to think I'm a one trick pony. Wouldn't be good to send too much leather armor. I can do so much more than that.

And thanks for the heads up on ethics and follow through and such but I think everyone should know all that by the time they are 20 (though I know plenty don't). Its not an issue for me, I do what I say I will.

So you think digital illustration like those examples you posted will be necessary to become a creative lead of sorts? I've been about tangible creations so far but I guess it couldn't hurt to polish up the photoshop skills. I surely spend enough time in PS already anyway compensating for my bad product photography skills hehe.

I made the costume armour for Veritas Prince of Truth.



The deadlines are difficult and the changes are unexpected.
The international overnight shipping is a bitch.

Then someone else claims credit for my armour.
I don't think I will do anything like this again.

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... armour.jpg
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... 2boots.jpg

This experience left me biased... and I would not recommend it to anyone.
However your milage may vary.

Best of luck on your quest.

Hal

"He who pays the piper calls the tune."

...and the next thing you know they want you to play "A Pig and Sixpence" on bagpipes while you dance a waltze on one leg!

We're a lot fussier on leasing out the longship, these days, and have turned down a number of contracts based on impossible/dangerous timetables as well as having some projects canceled on us. As has been pointed out above; when someone else is paying you, even if it's doing something you love, they get to say what you get to do.

Good luck, and let us know if you nail-down any neat projects.

This thread has given me some things to think about. I'm going to play it by ear over the next couple years and see what happens as I build this new Imperial Armories business. Hopefully by that time IA will afford me the freedom to be where I need to be so I can do the high key gigs.

Dear Prince,

I do hope you get to work for a high profile film, and preferably the Wheel of Time movies, because that is what you really want. By writing this I want to give you a positive boost as best I can. The above posts are no doubt all true and well thought out, but I hope they don't scare you off. Just letting you know I am rooting for you, even if it is just to see that dreams do come true

Best of luck!

prince, i have worked in the film industry for 22 years . the best advice i can give anyone who wants to work in film is to move to la and look for work as a production assistant (easy to find) and start working. you are going to need to expand your skill sets to include other aspects of prop making, sword and sandal movies arent made everyday. being in la working as a pa will give you on set practacal experience and most importantly you will start to meet the people who are going to employe you in the future. i started as a pa and now im a stedicam operator. film work is not easy to find and who you know is still the most important. listen to chris he is a great prop man.

cheers,
nicholas
squire to duke edric v