anyone have experience making scabbards?

[nicholas cochiolo]

never done this before, looking for advice on making a scabbard (for katzbalger). open to any ideas.

cheers,
nicholas
squire to duke edric v

[Smilingotter]

This may be of some help:

http://www.yeoldegaffers.com/project_scabbard.asp

[nicholas cochiolo]

thanks smiling otter. the link is exactly what i needed.

cheers,
nicholas

[Mac]

This may be of some help:

http://www.yeoldegaffers.com/project_scabbard.asp

"The olde gaffer" has over thought the wood part. Typically, the wood of real scabbards consists of a pair of thin (c.3/32") slats that are simply wrapped around the blade. The covering keeps them in place. In addition to being more historically correct, the slat construction is lighter, and more elegant looking as well as faster to make than the "dugout" method.

Mac

[coreythompsonhm]

How would those slats be formed into shape?

[Mac]

How would those slats be formed into shape?

They are very thin, Corey. They barely need any forming at all. I have moistened the outsides and bound them in place wet, but I am not really sure whether the moistening was really necessary.

Mac

[knitebee]

more modern take on it but great durability and fit http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showth ... ysprune=-1

[coreythompsonhm]

Mac-

I'll have to give that a try when I get around to it one of these days.

[Mac]

Mac-

I'll have to give that a try when I get around to it one of these days.

You go guy!

Chose a wood that is low in tannins. Beach is traditional (per the article on "le fourbisseur" in Diderot & d'Alembert), but maple is good as well. Don't be tempted to go any thicker than 3/32, and thinner is probably better.


Mac

[coreythompsonhm]

I'm not too sure about being able to obtain beach from local suppliers, even though they will have every exotic wood known available.

I do not have experience with maple so thin, but from my experiences with other projects, maple is pretty damn hard. I would suspect working it wet would be a better choice?

[Marshal]

Poplar is light, strong, easy to work and low in tannins.

I lined mine with felt, but it's not really necessary.

The real difficulty for me has always been the chape and locket. My soldering skills suck.

[Mac]

I'm not too sure about being able to obtain beach from local suppliers, even though they will have every exotic wood known available.

I do not have experience with maple so thin, but from my experiences with other projects, maple is pretty damn hard. I would suspect working it wet would be a better choice?

Corey,

Some species of maple are quite hard, and others, not so much. The stuff I used to get when I lived in central NY was called "rock maple" by the lumbermen, and it was well named. The stuff that the Home Despot sells is much softer.

Mac

[Mac]

Poplar is light, strong, easy to work and low in tannins.

I lined mine with felt, but it's not really necessary.

Marshal,

I have not used poplar, but it may well be a good choice. Like maple, it is available at the Home Despot. The thinnest strips they sell are way too thick, but they would be a convenient starting piece for resawing on the band saw.

I would recommend against the felt. It takes up space and makes the scabbard look bulky.

Mac

[Kel Rekuta]

Poplar has worked well for me, as has soft maple. Beech is my preferred wood for folding chairs but I had no idea it was used for scabbards. Interesting.

I second Mac's comment on the thinness of the wood. A light moistening of the outside makes the wood swell out slightly, especially if you wax or oil the inside faces. Once glued and bound with very light linen, the core keeps that lovely oval shape. And yet, its still springy enough to lightly grip the blade! The dugout method is old re-enactor guesswork. Far too clunky.

Marshall, I'm with you. My solder lines look like great plumbing joints but not so much like jewelry. I spend too much time cleaning up my mess. Maybe I should take that jewelry class.

[Kel Rekuta]

Beech isn't exotic although it might be a challenge to get better quality European steamed beech. Go to a real lumber yard that deals with cabinet makers. (most of them will resaw for a small fee as well.) Steaming brings out the "freckles" and gives beech its character. Otherwise its fairly bland wood not unlike soft maple.

Domestic beech is much coarser and most suppliers don't bother with it. It grows throughout the northern US and southern Canada but probably east of the Rockies. You might find that at a good price though.

Good hunting!

I'm not too sure about being able to obtain beach from local suppliers, even though they will have every exotic wood known available.

I do not have experience with maple so thin, but from my experiences with other projects, maple is pretty damn hard. I would suspect working it wet would be a better choice?

[Mac]

The dugout method is old re-enactor guesswork. Far too clunky.

"Death to the dugout scabbard!"

Mac

[Kel Rekuta]

[sirtonyarmour]

not to get off topic but what are some good books on the history of swords. with line drawings, pics, dims, etc.
Bladesmithing has interresed me for sometime and i hope to expand into it one day. Are there any TOMAR type books on this.

[olaf haraldson]

Sure, you post this AFTER I make my first scabbard from the dugout method.

[gr ben]

i use the dugout method.
you can get a non bulky scabbard just plane the wood down till you can see the light comming trough the wood.
and work with poplar.

and Mac is right most scabbards are way to bulky.

[Thomas Powers]

Well on blade making the ones by Hrisoulas "The Complete Bladesmith, The Master Bladesmith, The Pattern Welded Blade" (Even if you are doing straight stock removal these are valuable references!)

Now on swords in history most anything by or associated with Ewart Oakeshott:
Sword in The Age of Chivalry
Records of the Medieval Sword
Swords of the Viking Age
Sword in Hand A brief survey of the Medieval sword

The Sword in Anglo Saxon England, Davidson (illustrated by Oakeshott)

Plus such things as: "The Celtic Sword", Radomir Pleiner---tons of metallographic info on them! The Metallography of Early Ferrous Edge Tools and Edged Weapons", Tylecote and Gilmour

Note that ILL is your friend for things like "The Celtic Sword"

[Marshal]

i use the dugout method.
you can get a non bulky scabbard just plane the wood down till you can see the light comming trough the wood.
and work with poplar.

My problem with that is that if you break it, there's a lot of work down the tubes. The split method is faster and cheaper, in my experience, any way. Especially if like me you don't work with power tools.

[Mac]

gr ben,

Those are nice looking scabbards. I would never have suspected that they were dugouts.

Mac

[gr ben]

Hi Marshal iI never use power tools to make my scabbards.
they make way to much noise, I like working with just planes and chissels.
I use power tools all day at work(Welder).

Mac thank you for the kind words.

I think that you can get a better schape for a bluntsword.
with the dugout method you can define the shape better,
the slats can become bulky when the go over a thicker blade.

[Marshal]

Yeah, I made my first one by channeling out two slabs. It was just such a lot of work, getting the precise fit. Didn't turn out anywhere as nice as yours, either. ( Pretty darned strong though. It'd make a nice second weapon. )

[Antonio]

On a separate note, anyone know any good ways of making a 'right looking' scabbard for an SCA (IE, with a blunt on the tip) rapier?

[Thomas MacFinn]

On a separate note, anyone know any good ways of making a 'right looking' scabbard for an SCA (IE, with a blunt on the tip) rapier?

Add spacers between the slats of wood. Your rapier will rattle in the scabbard, but the scabbard won't rip the blunt off.

[Milan H]

I have thought out a way to do it, but haven't tried it yet. It involves making a wooden form that is a positive of the sword and blunt with a dowel that is slightly larger than the tip running the length. Then lay a thin layer of fiberglass over the mold longer that than blade and tip. Do this twice, and clean up the inside as necessary. Trim both sides to match the blade, and bond the sides together with a bit more fiberglass and resin. Build up the scabbard to a thickness that pleases you. Cover the whole thing as you want, I would probably use thin leather and glue/stitch it in place. Clean up the ends, leaving the tip end open. Build a chape that fits over the tip end, and gives it a nice pointed look. Hot glue or pin it in place. The reason is that its possible the rubber tip could get pulled out inside the scabbard, so you have a way to push it out.

Could be done with wood as well. Use a ball router on a thicker piece of stock, and run matching channels. Carve and sand the rest to fit.

I think some blade shapes would allow you to have a snug fit at the top of the blade and still allow the tip to pass through, but it depends on the blade width.

Cheers!

[Antonio]

Hrrm, the dowelling is a good thought. I may try that along with the slat method, and see how it goes.

[Aussie Yeoman]

For an historically correct (or at least, correcter) scabbard, how much wider than the blade shoudl the slats be? What I'm asking is, how much wood/wood contact does there need to be for a good glue line?

Or am I over engineering it, and one applies the leather cover to hold the slats in place? If so, what holds the mouth of the scabbard open?

Dave

[Antonio]

So, one long chat with the guy in the sawmill:
No greenwood available
No veneer cut available.

2 test bits of pine planed down to 4mm, soaking in a boiling waterbath, and already starting to develop a natural curve after only 2 kettles worth.

Plan B will be buying a sheet of 4mm beech plywood, which he thinks may distort appropriately.

[Mac]

Dave,

The slats should be barely wider than the blade its self. I would say 1/16" (1.5mm) at most, and quite probably less. It's the cover that really holds the thing together. The slats need only be enough wider than the blade that edges can not cut the covering material. Take a minute to sketch out some cross sections on paper and you will see what I mean.

The mouth of the scabbard stays open because the whole structure has dried around the blade. When the blade is withdrawn, there might be some tendency for the mouth to flatten a bit, but not so much that the blade can not be put back in. A metallic locket at the mouth helps to minimize that tendency as well.

Mac

[gr ben]

i mostly take 4mm for the glue line and use bone glue (non-corosive)

[Antonio]

Hrm, looking at the practicalities of it, with a 22mm max internal diameter (to allow the blunt in), it is going to be very tricky to get wood to bend sufficiently to make the scabbard unless it's an implausibly wide blade, or insanely thin (like 1.5-2mm) wood. I may need to cheat, and use a core tube (probably plastic plumbing pipe, and build up the triangles on either side to turn it into an ellipse, which I can then cover in leather in the usual fashion. Unless anyone else has any ideas?

[Sean Powell]

Unless anyone else has any ideas?

Dumb idea but do you really want/need a fencing scabard or do you want something that looks like a scabard and holds your balde at your hip? I ask because if it's the later then you really only need the show-side of the scabard and can have a thin-wall pipe up the back side. Hell, you could build a dummy scabard of a single piece of wood, router a slot up the back side (by back I mean toward your leg.) bore a hole where the tip will end up for maximum concelement, wrap the thing in leather with brass chape etc and then glue in strip magnets down the slot. Instead of sliding your fencing blade with it's rubber tip into the scabard, you slide it between your body and the dummy scabard and let it stick into place. It won't draw quickly but it also won't fall out.

Just engineering a stage acceptable solution since a more authentic solution is unlikely.

Sean