anyone have experience making scabbards?

[Antonio]

Well, it needs to be good enough to wear with the public around and not scream inauthenticity from any direction. Which makes it tricky. I've gotten a 22mm pipe and 2 L shaped bits of moulding at the DIY store, and will use that to make an ellipse (with the open side of the L sitting against the O <O> as it were), and then fill the gaps, smooth em, and sort out the bottom end, probably with milliput, then leather and chape cover. It'll look like I've got a war sword with a complex hilt, but that's hardly unheard of.

[Mac]

Well, it needs to be good enough to wear with the public around and not scream inauthenticity from any direction. Which makes it tricky.

Antonio,

Is there any reason to think that authentic fencing "blunts" were ever carried in scabbards?

Mac

[Antonio]

None whatsoever. They probably weren't! Which is the irritating part.... this is a problem caused by a non-period safety measure. It's just otherwise digging a blunt out of my pouch, followed by the securing tape, and then taping it on, and all the rest of it is even more of an intrusion.

[Mac]

Antonio,

Wouldn't it be cooler to just carry your rebated weapons in a nice iron-bound, leather-covered, locked casket with a handle? You could wear a real weapon at your side in a real scabbard. When you went to fence, you would remove your sword with its scabbard and carrier and set it next to your casket of fencing weapons...or hand it to an underling to keep track of it for you. You would be the envy of the fencing lists; and you would not have to have a special scabbard that looked like a pipe.

Mac

[Aussie Yeoman]

Seconded, Mac!

Sometimes it is not possible to look the part and be safe at the same time. Take bargrills for example. But it is possible to look the part, and then be safe in short order.

Oh and Mac, thanks for that other advice. I must have skimmed over the earlier part where you mention using green/wet wood. Here in Australia, the timber I regularly use hovers around the 1.0 SG, so I might go even thinner than 3/16....perhaps even 1/8 if my resawing skills are up to it.

Dave

[Antonio]

That is a _very_ tempting thought, Mac. That said, I _think_ I can make this one look 'not like a pipe' (because standard SCA rapier cylindrical pipe scabbards look _dreadful_!). I shall make the experiment, in anycase, and see. I _think_ I can make it look right (with the exception of it being a war-blade mounted on a complex hilt, which is documentable), but we'll have to see.

[Mac]

I must have skimmed over the earlier part where you mention using green/wet wood. Here in Australia, the timber I regularly use hovers around the 1.0 SG, so I might go even thinner than 3/16....perhaps even 1/8 if my resawing skills are up to it.

Dave

Dave,

You want to use dry wood, but damp the outside a bit to make it want to curl.

3/32".....not 3/16" This is important.

The trick to re-sawing is all in the set up. Make sure your band saw blade is sharp and the teeth are well and evenly set. Make sure your wheels are both in the same plane and your blade tracks in the middle of the wheels. Set your guide blocks as close as you can. Make sure the fence and the blade are parallel when viewed from the front. Send a test piece through the saw free-hand and see what angle (if any) you have to use to make the blade track straight down the line. Set the fence at that angle, even if it looks ludicrous.

When everything is perfect cut a bunch of stock and set it aside for later.

Mac

[Kel Rekuta]

When everything is perfect cut a bunch of stock and set it aside for later.

Mac

This cannot be emphasized enough!!!! It takes longer to set the bugger up for just the right thickness than it does to run enough wood for twenty scabbards!

Oh and on the topic of carrying around a bunch of rebated swords in scabbards...
I don't think these dudes were going off to practice with a bundle of sharps:

RomAlex114vS&B.JPG (27.48 KiB) Viewed 689 times

[Mac]

Kel,

That pic is a nice find!

I think that Antonio is talking about rapiers, rather than broad swords, though. The problem is the button on the tip.

Mac

[Antonio]

Yeah, very much so! In period, it wouldn't be an issue though- I could amble along with a bated (or even not) sword in a scabbard, and then shove a real button on the end when I wanted to fence, rather than fight. The problem is the SCA situation, where it needs to be a bit better secured than that (for entirely understandable and sensible reasons).

That said, first days bodging done. Pipe slit up the top end, both sides, with wedges removed, to permit for the distal taper of the blade, L shaped bits glued on, and filler placed to smooth out the 'gutters'. Milliput bought, to make the bottom end, tomorrow, when everything else has set. Then another day to set, and sand it all down smooth, and look at some thin leather and a chape. I'm not planning on a significant raised area on the dagger sheath, since iirc, all the illustrations of the period just show it shoved into a belt, certainly rapier would need multiple ridges to engage with the 6 buckle hanger.

It's too broad, really (specially for the dagger I'm trying the process on), but it is at least scabbard _shaped_ (or rather, flattened hexagonal prism, rather than smooth oval), which is a step up on any other rapier scabbard I've seen.

[Kel Rekuta]

Hmm, I usually don't think of rapiers unless they are in a case in a museum.

I do have a suggestion based on a protective scabbard some one had at an HEMA event. Instead of round PEX plumbers tubing, the person took a larger diameter tube and flattened it to an ovaloid cross section by heating it and pressing with a board. Since the blade in question was one of those formidable sidesword thingies with almost an inch and a half width at the forte, it worked very nicely. The bird blunt or whatever those rubber tips are just slid in the narrow dimension and the blade fit the wider dimension. Pretty clever for a few minutes work with a hot air gun.

A cunning craftsperson could cover that and mount it up in a reasonably period way, given some effort.

[Antonio]

That's a neat solution, Kel.

Incidentally, to those who've done this in wood, how smooth does the finish need to be before you put the leather on?

[gr ben]

just sand it down with a 220 grid. this is smooth enough

[Mac]

Incidentally, to those who've done this in wood, how smooth does the finish need to be before you put the leather on?

Smooth enough that you can't see the irregularities through the leather. I don't see any reason to go any finer than 60grit, unless the leather is a very thin skiver, or vellum etc. In any case you should do a little test piece, to see what does and what does not show through the leather.

Scabbards sometimes have a layer of cloth or paper between the wood slats and the covering material. This would make smoothing the wood less of an issue. On the other hand it can create its own issues. The overlaps in the paper or fabric will have to be smoothed down or gessoed up to make the surface ready to receive the cover.

Mac

[Antonio]

Bear in mind that this is my unholy mix of plastic, wood, polyfiller and milliput Cloth might be a good idea.

[gr ben]

Mac do you have some good reads on the subject of scabbard making?
i'm always looking for more information.

[Mac]

Mac do you have some good reads on the subject of scabbard making?
i'm always looking for more information.

GRB,

There's not much out there. The best thing I have found is the article in Diderot and d'Alembert that I think I mentioned earlier. There is an English translation, which I have a Zerox copy of. If you would rather read it in English, I can try to find my copy and post a citation.

Now, Diderot and d'Alembert only gets you back to the middle of the 1700s, but that's a lot better than starting from the early 2000s.

Does anyone know of anything earlier?

Mac

[gr ben]

Hi Mac I would realy apreciate that.

for other reads:
knives and scabbards Museum of london. isbn; 9781843833536
sheaths scabbards and grip coverings (findings from finland) isbn; 951-96801-4-4
publication by c van driel-murray veertiende eeuwse zwaardschedes uit leiden(fourteenth century swordscabbards from Leiden)
it's a dutch paper on swordscabbards found near the visbrug area in Leiden. no isbn

ben

[Mac]

GRB,

Thank you for those citations. I look forward to reading them.

Unfortunately, my search for the xerox of the article was fruitless. It was not in either filing cabinet. I fear that that means it was in some unlikely place when I moved the shop, and is currently in a box somewhere. On the plus side, I believe I recall that it was in the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting. There is an index here, http://www.armscollecting.com/CJAC.htm and I think that this is the article in question.

Vol. 24, No. 3 (Aug. 1986)
Poppensiek, Neil A. Diderot: On the Manufacture of the French Small Sword. 79-87

Mac

[Paladin74]

Mine's pretty nice.


Not too thick at all. But I know what you mean...any of the wood-cored ones from Windlass are quite thick and bulky.

[Gregoire de Lyon]

What a a fortuitous topic! I was just thinking that I needed to make a new scabbard.

I'm not so big on the whole re-sawing thing, as I don't have a band saw and it sounds like a major PITA. A few minutes on Google later and I found this source for 3/32" soft maple: KenCraft Company.

Luckily for me, they are right down the road. Luckily for you, they ship.

Also, it appears that you can get 3/32" by searching for dollhouse and model shipping building suppliers, though they don't identify the species of wood.

Cheers!

[Antonio]

Well, the unholy abortion which is my 'fits a rapier with blunt in' scabbard is made, with a temporary wool covering on until my leather and scabbard chapes arrive, and I have a chance to do the proper coverings. Whilst I'm irritated that I couldn't do it in a period fashion, it does look significantly better than carrying a bare blade (with blunt), or the standard cylindrical rapier-with-blunt scabbards. I may yet have a go with veneer and laminating tho'.

Dagger scabbard modelled by my daughter (and I need to restitch that seam, but it was a quick 'tack it together, and see how it looks' job).

[Tibbie Croser]

Interesting subject. I, too, would like a scabbard for my SCA rapier but don't like the covered PVC pipe scabbards. Being a seamstress but not a woodworker, I've been pondering the idea of a semi-flexible scabbard made of extra-heavy, stiff cotton webbing covered in thin leather or velvet. In theory, the webbing would open wide enough to accommodate the round blunt tip but would lie relatively flat over the blade. I would probably try the idea out as an SCA fencing dagger sheath first.

[Cillene mac Conghalaigh]

So I got inspired by this thread. Great information! I used the resources here and made a scabbard for my new dirk. It’s a wood dug out shaped core with risers covered in chocolate buffalo hide.

[knitebee]

recently finished, core is two thin slabs of hickory (supplied by the customer for sentimental value to the project) Sword was forged by the customer too. Do to the thickness of the blade I had to steam bend the planks (might also have to do with them being hickory) to fit the profile of the blade, wrapped with 3-4oz leather, belt from 6-7oz, metal fitsing by me, buckle forged by the customer. I've done carved wood, all leather and fiberglass cores before this was my first try at slabs, wasn't easier, wasn't harder, was different with its own set of challenges <(don't grab the wrong non waterproof glue if you wind up needing to re-steam a section ).

[Antonio]

And leather and chape in place (chape not yet glued). Dagger scabbard to fit dagger with blunt on.

[Mac]

recently finished, core is two thin slabs of hickory (supplied by the customer for sentimental value to the project) Sword was forged by the customer too. Do to the thickness of the blade I had to steam bend the planks (might also have to do with them being hickory) to fit the profile of the blade, wrapped with 3-4oz leather, belt from 6-7oz, metal fitsing by me, buckle forged by the customer.

Brian,

How thick were those hickory slabs?

Mac

[knitebee]

Brian,

How thick were those hickory slabs?

Mac

They where aprox 3/32" thick, had to cut them with a table saw from rough cut lumber then ran them through a planner which still left them closer to 3/16" I sanded them down from there with 40g on a belt sander. Biggest issue is the blade has a lot more spine than most historic examples especially at the base where its nearly 3/8" thick. The hickory we used was sawn up when the customer was 18, his son is graduating BYU with a Masters now (This is a graduation gift) so its set and aged for a couple decades.

[Tom B.]

I'm not so big on the whole re-sawing thing, as I don't have a band saw and it sounds like a major PITA. A few minutes on Google later and I found this source for 3/32" soft maple: KenCraft Company.

All I saw that thin was Cherry, looks like Soft Maple was 1/8" at the thinnest.
I may give them a call since it looks like all the the thin stuff is cut to order.

Tom

[Mike J]

I’m a weeny; I took the cheap, easy way out for my last scabbard (steal not rattan). I bought a “Handy cut” piece of plywood that was longer than my sword. I traced the sword on the plywood, added about ½ inch and cut it out. Then I soaked it in the guest bathroom tub for a couple of days. It de-laminated nicely. I used the two outside pieces for my scabbard.

[Kel Rekuta]

I'm not so big on the whole re-sawing thing, as I don't have a band saw and it sounds like a major PITA. A few minutes on Google later and I found this source for 3/32" soft maple: KenCraft Company.

All I saw that thin was Cherry, looks like Soft Maple was 1/8" at the thinnest.
I may give them a call since it looks like all the the thin stuff is cut to order.

Tom

Cherry steams and shapes well at that thickness. I've done all kinds of things with it as I am using up an entire tree worth of lumber I scored at a mill auction. Love that stuff almost as much as steamed beech.

Kel

[James B.]

I have some poplar slats I have been thinking about planing down for some scabbard projects using the Mac method. Now I want to really git it a try since I set my shop up.

[Tom B.]

This may be of some help:

http://www.yeoldegaffers.com/project_scabbard.asp

"The olde gaffer" has over thought the wood part. ...
Mac

What about the rest?
What thickness of leather is needed?
What is the correct stitching method?
Any other comments?

Tom

[gr ben]

i use thin veg tanned leather 1 or 0,8 mm

the corect stitching method i have seen on originals is a nomal sadlers stitch.

leave the leather to wide then sew it together and then trim it just above the stitching and rub it down and flat with a piece of bone.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... highlight=

[James B.]

From what I have seen and read the leather is real thin. 2-3oz veg tanned would do. Stitching on many Anglo Saxon scabbards in the UK were grain edge saddle stitched. Most examples through out history are as gr ben said, overlap is saddle stitched, extra trimmed, edge polished. The Gaffer method is of X stitching is most popular with people making the scabbard themselves but no at all historical.