Need Pics, Late 14th, early 15th cent hinges

[Sean Powell]

Hello,

I wouldn't ask but all of my picture books by Carlos are carefully packed up for a move that probably won't happen any time soon (But my wife got to keep HER fashion books out. Don't ask). I'm looking for some inspiration for some hinges. Sides of curiases, sides of cuisses, the 2 and 3 rivet combos for greaves and vambraces, even the hinges that hold thumbs onto gauntlets. Any and all close-up pictures would be welcome. Any from Sigmund of Tyrols suit or the Avant harness would be doubly welcome.

Thank you!

Sean

[wcallen]

Very boring, but probably original - at least in 3 of the 4 sections:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-186.html

Talbot and I agree - about 1430.

Mantova would be your friend. If you can't get to your copy, you could come look through mine....



Wade

[Sean Powell]

Beautiful pics Wade, but please stop teasing. At this point I would need a star-trek transporter and a 3-day babysitter. :/

Next year, I promise.

Sean

[wcallen]

Sean,

No problem, I understand.

I haven't scanned my Mantova, so I don't have the tons of pics that would be nice to have from it.

The hinges on my arm are about as simple as you can get away with.

Wade

[RandallMoffett]

Wade,

Is that stop rib on the vambrace? How is it attached? Very interesting piece

RPM

[wcallen]

Wade,

Is that stop rib on the vambrace? How is it attached? Very interesting piece

RPM

It is.

The most interesting things are:

I actually own it!!!!!!
Which parts are real and which ones are fake.
It was in Claude Blair's collection.
I am pretty sure it was restored by H.R. Robinson in the Tower.

Back to the question - the stop rib is a restoration.
Given the methods of restoration, I expect that it uses only existing holes and that it is at least pretty well supported by pieces they had lying around. It is secured by 3 rivets - one on each end and one in the middle where the stop-rib swells to allow the rivet.

Wade

[Sean Powell]

And why is there a stop-rib on the LEFT arm? I get it for the right same as the plate that shields the articulation. Makes sense for the arm holding the lance. I don't get it for the arm holding the reigns and controlling the shield. These pre-date grandguards, right? I wish my books weren't all packed up.

Sean

[wcallen]

And why is there a stop-rib on the LEFT arm? I get it for the right same as the plate that shields the articulation. Makes sense for the arm holding the lance. I don't get it for the arm holding the reigns and controlling the shield. These pre-date grandguards, right? I wish my books weren't all packed up.

Sean

But basically post dates the active shield... so it could easily be reasonable. You still have things sliding up into your elbow.

Wade

[Aussie Yeoman]

There is no roll on the lower canon around thw wrist. What's with that?

Also with the wrist...what's with the line of arming nails?

The hole in the fan - would that have been for attaching one of those enormous elbow guards seen so often on late 15thC armours?

The more I look at this, the more I think this would be a great vambrace to copy for a beginner/intermediate. The shapes are pretty simple, and it's extant.

Dave

[wcallen]

Sean,

This might help a little bit:

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/165a.jpg
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/165b.jpg

They aren't big, but they are some images of arms with hinges from L'Arte. - EDIT - sorry, Mantova, not L'Arte. I was looking at both, but took these from Mantova.

Wade

[wcallen]

There is no roll on the lower canon around thw wrist. What's with that?

Also with the wrist...what's with the line of arming nails?

The hole in the fan - would that have been for attaching one of those enormous elbow guards seen so often on late 15thC armours?

The more I look at this, the more I think this would be a great vambrace to copy for a beginner/intermediate. The shapes are pretty simple, and it's extant.

Dave

Goofy, eh?

The hole is most likely for the elbow strap, there is one in the back for that too. It could be for a reinforcing elbow, this would be an early-ish time, but definitely possible. The wing has definitely been cut down from its original size.

The rivets around the wrist are a mystery. Very odd. When they made the copy of the inner plate, they put them there too. I don't actually have a good explanation. They are to close together for brass borders. A roll is definitely more normal. There is a big one on top, so they were doing them.

Anyone's explanation would be appreciated. We can talk about ideas and see if anyone seems to have the best one.

The shape is subtle, but it is also well done. The rotator in the vambrace even works. The cop and articulations fit well too. Overall not a bad one to work from to build a late 14th, early 15th one (for late 14th, change the hinges to an inset one, maybe mess with the upper, etc.).

It is on the list to play with next week.

Wade

[wcallen]

And this isn't pictures... but it appears that in the late 14th through early 15th c. you have 4 choices for things on vambraces, some a little on the fudgy side depending on when you really mean.

Integral hinges like the Chartres armour. The hinges are "inset" but they are made from extensions of the actual metal that forms the pieces. This is entertaining to do and adds a certain level of "special" to the piece. I have 2 sets of arms I made this way. The vambrace has one, central, relatively wide hinge.

A central, but not integral inset hinge. From memory there are some of these in the Met and Churburg. The hinge in the vambrace is about the same size, and looks pretty much the same as the previous one, but it is formed from separate pieces of metal.

Two small external hinges that are carved to shape. They are often carved with cute rounded ends. The upper one usually has a second rivet on one side so that the inner vambrace can't slide up and down.

Two small hinges - the lower one being external and the upper one being internal. The lower one is cut like the previous ones, the upper one is basically a rectangle because it doesn't show. This makes more sense than you might think - it makes it a lot easier to get the wing to fit nicely to the vambrace when the hinge isn't sticking out on the outside of the vambrace.

Wade

[Ceawlin]

Perhaps the rivets around the wrist were to secure an internal lining?

[wcallen]

Perhaps the rivets around the wrist were to secure an internal lining?

I can't be certain of anything about these rivets... but....

The "heads" of the rivets on the inside are just the kind of mush I would expect on the piened end.
There is no sign of any space under the heads - there is on the brig plates I have.
There is no sign of any corresponding rivets anywhere else on the arm for the other end of the lining.
The "heads" on the inside seem to have similar oxidation to the rest of the period pieces. The "new" pieces are not antiqued in any way.
I don't know of any lined vambraces.

But almost anything might be possible.

Anyone have any other suggestions? I am always up for ideas.

Wade

[Aussie Yeoman]

It may just have been to look cool. Not likely though - the rivets seem flush on the outside. Unless at one stage there were brass heads on the outside.

Some might say this would be redundant decoration as the cuff would be hidden under gauntlets - however we see a few fechtbucher in which the combatants are armoured cap-a-pie except for gauntlets.

Dave

[wcallen]

It may just have been to look cool. Not likely though - the rivets seem flush on the outside. Unless at one stage there were brass heads on the outside.

Some might say this would be redundant decoration as the cuff would be hidden under gauntlets - however we see a few fechtbucher in which the combatants are armoured cap-a-pie except for gauntlets.

Dave

Redundant never stopped them. There are definitely decorative borders at the wrist of some late 14th c./early 15th c. pieces.

They might be flush on the outside due to later cleaning, I don't know. I have done decorative rivets on a piece, but I wasn't basing it on much... There are some covered late 14th c. pieces with lots of rivets where the fabric was secured, but again there should be some on the other end/sides for that to make sense.

Wade

[Aussie Yeoman]

What surprises me more than the apparently needless rivets is the lack of a roll around the cuff. I suppose though that if the canon finished far enough up the arm, it wouldn't dig into the hand, meaning the only other issue would be the reduction in strength from not having as much three dimensional shape.

Dave

[wcallen]

What surprises me more than the apparently needless rivets is the lack of a roll around the cuff. I suppose though that if the canon finished far enough up the arm, it wouldn't dig into the hand, meaning the only other issue would be the reduction in strength from not having as much three dimensional shape.

Dave

Actually the complete lack of either a roll or a border surprises/annoys me too. But it was how it came.



The trimmed wing annoys me too.

I bet that these "odd" details are why I could afford the thing.

They are odd, but I don't see any reason that these details aren't real - they are so odd no one would think to do them in a fake.

I really would live to find a decent explanation for them. Thinking off the top of my head, what is the chance that there was an applied steel edge - not decorative, a real reinforcing border? I have never seen such a thing on an arm, but they happen on Kastenbrust breastplates (same period) and the reinforcing band on a pauldron isn't terribly different.

If someone comes up with a good idea at the session, I will share.

Wade

[Aussie Yeoman]

The problem with that is the same as with the lining idea. If there was a steel strip of reinforce, would not the length of the rivet shanks show it? Unless the band was removed during use life or soon thereafter, with the holes filled at the same time hence the ages look.

I used an applied strip of steel to allow enough material to roll around the arm holes of my breastplate. I think the idea is sound, but my personal execution of it could have been better:





Dave

[wcallen]

It is just a theory... and probably wrong.

Assuming that it might possibly be right, it would have started out as something like the edge details you can't really see on this breastplate:
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/GeoffArmour2007.jpg

Then the (totally unsupported) theory would be that it was somehow damaged or rotted and removed at some point during its later life. Then when the piece was cleaned, the outer rivets were smoothed off.

As I said, I am just rambling. Time for someone else to ramble if they want to play this game of conjecture.

Wade

[Sean Powell]

Guys, I appreciate the bumps and keeping this topic near the top and always love any details on Wades collection but... hinges? Pics of hinges anyone?

Sean

[wcallen]

Guys, I appreciate the bumps and keeping this topic near the top and always love any details on Wades collection but... hinges? Pics of hinges anyone?

Sean

I remember some early-ish ones in L'Arte. They came from Churburg and the Met (from memory). If no one else volunteers them, I could go fishing and get them posted.

From memory, pretty boring.

I think you will mostly be deciding on whether you want to be "late 14th c." with recessed longer hinges in the vambrace, or "early 15th c." with surface mounted hinges. I am sure it isn't quite that clean, but that is a general pattern - and I don't know where the line is between "late 14th" and "early 15th" there - 1410? Not sure.

Wade

[Aussie Yeoman]

I have a couple of pages of sketches I have made of hinges from extant armour - however hey start from about 1440.

If you're still interested though, I can scan and upload.

Dave

[Sean Powell]

Hello Dave,

If convenient I would appreciate it. I don't have a solid project in mind and a lot of my shop is ending up in boxes so the basement looks less cluttered to buyers. I figured I could work on small projects and got the idea to make hinges in various sizes and styles. It's something I can do without a lot of noise or a lot of tools and I can set them aside for other projects in the future. (so separate hinges rather then integral.) I figure that my last set of vambraces eventually failed at the brass piano hinge so the next pair need a better solution, especially if I start playing with rebated steel and working with the BotN people.

Sean

[Aussie Yeoman]

Aha. And here I was thinking you needed to make hinges for a specific project. Very well, I shall scan my sketches shortly.

[wcallen]

These are kind of boring, but they are what you really should be doing:

http://www.allenantiques.com/temp/LarteP30.jpg
http://www.allenantiques.com/temp/LarteP42.jpg
http://www.allenantiques.com/temp/LarteP57.jpg
http://www.allenantiques.com/temp/LarteP99.jpg
http://www.allenantiques.com/temp/LarteP108.jpg

I think that late 14th and very early 15th hinges are generally the ones that are on the inside. Things change... sometime around 1410-20-ish to the outside ones. So most of the stuff people will want to BOTN probably should be inside. Yes, they go later than that, so you can move on to the external hinges - both with 2 rivets and 3.
Wade

[Sean Powell]

Wade, MUCH appreciated. Lots of good ideas in there. I'm loving the vambrace hinges in the picture especially.

http://www.allenantiques.com/temp/LarteP108.jpg

The RIGHT is a 3- rivet and 2 rivet combination like you would expect on greaves but the LEFT both hinges are 2-hole and the proximal one is tucked on the inside so the cut-out keeps it from racking the way the 2nd rivet would like on this leg: http://www.allenantiques.com/temp/LarteP57.jpg . Makes you wonder if this was done for a practical reason under the grand-guard or if the armorer made the wrong type of hinge.

Some others also provide a good sense of proportion between length and width as well as ratio of barrel lengths for each half. That actually is likely to be important to hinge life.

Thanks,
Sean

[wcallen]

I have always thought that they did the inset upper hinge to allow the wing of the cop or reinforce to fit closely to the arm.

I have made arms with 2 exposed hinges and wings that fit nicely and you have to be very, very careful on fit and alignment or you jam into the hinge. It is very annoying. Notice that the upper hinge on the right arm is pretty low down too. This is likely because it would have bashed if it had been higher.

Wade

[Sean Powell]

Well that makes sense. I couldn't figure out what it might collide with since it is so anterior but those huge fans probably make a big difference. Thanks for pointing out how low the right hand hinges are.

Speaking of arms and hinges. I was going through my own phots when I noticed this pair of arms from the Met. I had always assumed they were a matched pair but both of them are hinge-side up.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t239 ... CF0011.jpg

Notice not only that the hinge styles are different but that the far one HAS to be a left also based on the hinges. It also has the applied stop-rib that we were discussing on your arm harness as well. Apparently not as unique as I would have surmised... I wish I had been more methodical back in the day about photographing the index cards at the bottom of the display. It would tell us the difference in time period if nothing else.

Sean

[wcallen]

I would guess late 14th for the one on the right and early 15th, up to maybe the 30's for the one on the left. I like the arret on the inside and the outside. That guy wasn't fooling around.

From memory, both are Chalcis bits, but I could be wrong.

Wade.

[Aussie Yeoman]

So here are some sketches. Bear in mind that 'sketch' word. They aren't all to the same scale, and there isn't even a scale presented beside any of them. Their purpose was to serve as a reference so that when i wanted to make one, I would know where in my catalogue of images to look to see the original.







Enjoy. Or not.

D

[Aussie Yeoman]

Posted, they look a little small. I could upload a different format or something to make it more accessible.

[Sean Powell]

Wonderful set of pictures Aussie. Even better is that they have dates. Most of what I had been considering is simple like the Earl of Winchesrshire. Now I have dates and specific suits to look up.

Thank much!
Sean

[wcallen]

Simple ones like that? Cool, like the ones on my arm.
It looks like I was nice and included measurements on the hinges in my description so I don't have to go get them.

Have fun with hinges. I get bored with them pretty quickly.....

As to loosing all your stuff while the house is for sale? I cringe at the thought of what I would have to do to get my house into some semblance of saleable state. I think I would just have to move somewhere else first.

Wade

[Sean Powell]

No saying I actually go through with this. To me it's an engineering exercise in design. I'll do 1 of each size hand-cut to proof the pattern then either have RFH or Polar Bear Forge laser-cut some more blanks. Then I can play with efficiency in shaping. It's not the destination, it's the journey.

Wade, you have plenty of length/width dimensions but do you have any idea of hinge metal thickness and pin diameter? The hinge Mac taught me on was from .040" stock. I was thinking .036" (20ga) for the smaller ones and .048" (18ga) for the larger with .083" (3-penny nail) for all except the longest pins. Hinges in 4130 should last longer then mild-steel pins which is good for repair work.

Thanks,
Sean