The Armour Archive

Hello,
This has the potential to be an odd question. I've decided that I need to think about a new temporary suit of armor until I can loose the weight again and fit into the suit I really want. I'm interested in a new mid 15th century helmet and being true to my time period went straight to my preferred source which is Rene 'd Anjou's manuscript on the tourney. In the melee scenes half of the combatants (primaries) are wearing bar-grilled bascinets but a number of bystanders or more lightly armored participants are wearing kettle-hats or chapel de fer's for head protection. These helms are distinctive from earlier models as the brim is peaked forward and back similar to some morions but the peaks of some have a 'nipple' or vestigial point that seems to be folded back. It's one of those features that makes proponents of the welded cone theory say "Ha! When they were done with the cone they obviously bent the tip backwards rather then mess with the time to flatten it!" while proponents of the raised from a disk point out that not all helms have the point, the feature can still be raised from the inside (carefully) and that it seems to be more a stylistic then functional anyway.

I'm looking for a picture to share but I don't have my library while I'm at work. I have seen a number in pictures and need to go hunt down some extant examples for study BUT that's not what I need help with. (feel free to share any pics you have anyway.) here is a later period example from the ECW.
http://www.marquisofwinchesters.co.uk/I ... 202010.jpg

What I really need is pictures of SCAdian helms with that folded back nipple, information on how it was created and any concessions to SCA safety or not getting stuck with glancing rap shots. I'm thinking that the feature can be created with careful modification of a pair of high-point dished helmet halves where the area just distal and posterior to the peak is hammered back in and some extra material is ground away before welding the halves together.

Does anyone have or has anyone seen and photographed a SCAdian helmet with this feature? Has anyone built either for costume, LH, rebated steel or SCA a helmet with this feature? Any and all help is appreciated.

Thanks in advance!
Sean

These are as close as I have made:

http://www.allenantiques.com/R-12.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/R-8.html

Ignore the barbute - though that is right out of Rene too.

The first was a cone. I actually made the acorn integral to the piece - it was formed from the point of the cone. That was annoying, and they generally seem to have brazed them on, so it was pointless. It was basically made by raising in everything that wasn't the shape I wanted.

The chapel de fer (dairy queen for those "in the know") was also a cone. Push in everything around the sides to make the bowl, a little flairing at the front and back, poof a helmet.
On this one the point was just pushed in. It is really thick up there. If you swept it in and left the stalk you would have what you want.

I actually played with some "points sticking back" hats from 2 pieces. I didn't really like it. It felt like cheating and it didn't really do what I wanted.

Why not just do the cone method? It might be closer to what they did. It should definitely be closer than using 2 halves. And the work is fun instead of being annoying and tedious. (insert personal opinion here, obviously)

Wade

ps. the barbute was just a normal 3-piece one. Nothing interesting there.

wcallen wrote:I actually played with some "points sticking back" hats from 2 pieces. I didn't really like it. It felt like cheating and it didn't really do what I wanted.

Why not just do the cone method? It might be closer to what they did. It should definitely be closer than using 2 halves. And the work is fun instead of being annoying and tedious. (insert personal opinion here, obviously)

Wade

Well if it doesn't do the right thing then I may not do it at all but I'm mostly looking for a proper siloute brain-bucket for SCA combat. It's easier to reach SCA thickness by working in halves, especially in stainless, and I'd have a tough time emotionally risking a hat that I had raised from a cone to being dented by some thug with a stick, never mind the emotional attachment I have to my head.

I'm having a lot of fun playing with my charcoal forge but right now I'm mostly working with bending and twisting barstock. My only hot sheet work is a long handle fryingpan and while being thick enough is a fairly good example that I am not ready for raising a helm yet. Perhaps some day soon I will try a lighter gauge helm and work up to a chapel. Over the short term modern construction seems the best choice.

Sean

This may sound silly, but....

"modern" construction of a hat with a point may actually just plain be harder than the other way.

"raising" a pointy-toped hat with a big brim from a cone can involve relatively little movement of metal. Draw it out from the front and side and overlay some cones on it. Do the same thing with the halves you plan to dish. I expect you will be surprised how little metal movement really has to be done in each place. You can vary the amount by changing the angle of the cone and flairing a little on the edge (or not). You can also assume no dishing in the bowl or a little bit.

I find that (with enough heat) "raising" thick SCA metal thicknesses is actually easy - maybe easier than the thin stuff. It doesn't wrinkle up the same way.

That "dairy queen" is 12g. Well, it was when I started. Now it is thick enough to fight in. Way over 12g in some places.

And - which will make you feel better when you describe it to people for the next 5 years? "I made it from some halves dished and added a brim" or "this started out as a cone - and I beat it until it was this shape"?

At least for me (insert personal opinion again) the second is a lot better. The first feels like fabrication, the second like armouring.

Anyway, YMMV, so do as you wish. But don't make the decision based on a certainty that the 2 halves will really be a lot faster or easier. It might be, but maybe not, and if it is, probably not as much as you think if you want to get a really nice shape.

Just remember to give the upper bowl part enough height and volume. That is a big problem with lots of copies, they are too short in the bowl.

Wade