New 1560's "Augsburg" Gorget UPDATE 7/18/13 COMPLETE!

[Johann ColdIron]

[*]It is based on an original in Wades collection.

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-201.html He was kind enough to let me handle it (with gloves!) and take patterns off of it. This is the first time I have based a piece on a specific original and I am trying my best to be as faithful to the original as I can. The only substantive change is that it will be completely out of 18 ga 1050 rather than the originals 16 ga front parts. I already regret this but I am not going back now!

Wade has been very helpful in sharing his ideas, techniques and even material with me. What I am doing would be a much more lumpy misshapen mess without his guidance. He has been very tolerant of my billions of questions.

I started work on this some time ago but took some time to process the photos. I'm linking them so you can actually see details like hammer marks and such. I'm sure to have forgotten something. Hopefully Wade and others will chime in and help the discussion.

Here goes!

Pulled the pattern off of the collar. I used a washer as a sharpie guide to add about 1/4" to the outside edges and the overlap. I am of the school of "trim to fit". That way any distortion or overrun can be trimmed off. Since this is 1050 I do not want to add metal by welding onto the workpiece as I have done on mild work in the past. It's cheating anyway...
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 210704.jpg

Wade told me of a technique he has used for shaping the backplate on gorgets where you heat two areas of the plate to push them out then curl it into a 3D shape Here are the results.
The color change shows where the heat was applied
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 212951.jpg

Here is the depth
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 213055.jpg

Then the ends that underlap the front plate were curled cold over the horn of the anvil.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 210437.jpg

Here is a side view. It is kind of Krinkly at the lame edge. After rough shape you need to go over it to even out the transition.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 210543.jpg

The shaped back up against the 2D front. Closed up a bit in the exercise.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 213843.jpg

Then the front was shaped with some heat. You can see the witness marks (centerpunch dents) on the workpiece centerline. These were all over the original often where it changes shape. I imaging the master placing these and letting the apprentice going to work. "Hit here, stop here, going past here...right out!"
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 192630.jpg

Closing in on it. Sides starting to match up. One of the things Wade told me to look out for was the straight line created by the tops of the front and back plates. That was one of the indicators that I was headed in the right direction. Another goal was to have a very round neck opening. Counter intuitive but it does make sense. While your neck is not round you do rotate it in a circle. So it needs to accomodate the widest part all the way around. This gorget was also thought to possibly locked together with a helmet. The roll end of the top lame would would also have to be round to do this. Kind of like turning cuff rerebraces. More on this later.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 192616.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 192518.jpg

The next step was to go over to Wades and get his advise on the shaping and where to go from here. See next post.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Lookin' good so far! Keep us posted. Cheers.

-Gerhard

[Johann ColdIron]

I went over to Wades one weekend and we chatted about a bunch of things. Dug through his collection and kind of looked at this project in a holistic manner. The full effort will be adding a Back and breast to the gorget a well as an arm harness so we want to be sure they will play well with each other. Then out to the shop! Not alot of pics but here goes.

I had held off doing the front crease until I got there just in case it needed major adjustment. It turned out to be OK so I creased it there with chisel and lead block. Then turned to getting the front and back to match up. The sharpie shows metal that will likely be cut away in the final product for swing clearance of the front. http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 164355.jpg

As you can see the back ended up wider that the front. Probably something with my technique as the pattern was directly off the original. Still not a perfectly round opening. I did more once I got home.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 163957.jpg

Here are both gorgets on Wades dining table. The shape is close and most importantly the front and back are mated together tightly. Mostly done by heating the backs ends and tapping it gently into the front while bolted together over a thin round profile stake. http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 163916.jpg
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 163929.jpg
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 164134.jpg
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 164118.jpg

After a lovely Pizza dinner with Wades gracious and tolerant family I went home. I can't really relate how nice it is to have someone like Wade near by to talk armour with. His wife would have probably found us the next morning still talking at the dining room table in the morning if I hadn't left when I did!

Picked it back up the next day and went into refining the shape while the instructions were still fresh. Spent a little time more evenly flaring the neck opening and evening out the transitions of the curves. They are really subtle on this piece and flow from one to the next. The black sharpie is the estimated overlap of a breast plate on the piece. Wade said that the shape of the opening of the breastplate neck follows the shape of the gorget base. He may have been quoting Mac at that point. It's a little blurry. We talked A LOT.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 204246.jpg

Here is the piece scuffed with 120 grit to show the low points that need popping out. http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 185820.jpg

An inside shot of the neck line and the work that will be needed there.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 185901.jpg

Next up tackling the roll at the top lame. Pics of my test pieces to come. This gorget does something interesting there.

I plan to build this gorget from both ends in. Seems to me to be the best way to control the critical measurement of neck size. Since this is my first articulated gorget this concerns me more than matching the lames to the collar. I figure I can trim them to fit for height but if it ends up too tight I am screwed!

[Johann ColdIron]

Lookin' good so far! Keep us posted. Cheers.

-Gerhard

Thanks Gerhard!

I forgot to add that I am posting this for critical input. I will not get defensive if you have suggestions on how to improve my work. I have thick skin and have endured pleny of critisism in my profession as well as my armouring.

You can send them to me privately if you don't want to look like a meany.

[wcallen]

I just went and checked the thicknesses I have listed on the original. .050 for the back plate is about right. The front on mine is actually thicker than .06, it gets above .08 in places. It would probably work out nicely from some nice "13 gauge". But I expect that is really unnecessary.

I had fun discussing and working with you.

Just wait for his notes on the roll at the top......

Wade

[Mac]

Johann,

Stop! You will save yourself a lot of trouble if you make the neck lame assembly first. The uppermost lame must be round and planar, so that the helmet will rotate properly. It is a lot harder to begin with the shape of the neck opening in the main plates and try to make the neck lames approach roundness than it is to work down from roundness and make the main plates fit the neck.

I have done it both ways, and there is no question in my mind that it is better in every particular to start at the top.

Mac

[Bender]

I agree-doing one of these for a client as well. Much easier to start with a hinged neck ring and work down. Always start from the smallest part and overlap outwards.

[Scott Martin]

Thanks Mac, I'm probably working on a new Breast and Back with integral gorget in the near future, and gettng the "top" was a nightmare on the last one (building from the bottom to the top, and the final fit was less than ideal) it makes sense to build it from the "circle" to the neck shape, but I just mechanically went and made the "next" piece instead of thinking how to handle the transition in the most graceful way possible.

On that note, does it make more sense to build the helm (close helm or armet) to lock into the collar, or to make the collar and then make the helm to lock onto it?

(apoligies for the partial thread hijack, but a lot of the hard work on these pieces isn't getting the piece right, it's making sure that you build the piece so that it integrates correctly with the *next* piece)

Scott Martin

[wcallen]

I have worked both ways and I don't think it as critical as some. If you know where you are going, top to bottom, bottom to top, or the way I have done it recently which is top and bottom then work in toward the middle all seem to work for me. Either way you do need to know what you are aiming for.

In this particular case, John can cheat more than many. He has tried on a finished version of what he is building and likes the fit of the piece. Since this is the case, he could potentially build it any which way even middle out and as long as the pieces match the one he tried on, it will work out in the end.

Back to comments from others.

Wade

P.S. I do admit that I am not terribly careful about the top line of the lower plates until I have the others to work with.

[Johann ColdIron]

Johann,

Stop! You will save yourself a lot of trouble if you make the neck lame assembly first. The uppermost lame must be round and planar, so that the helmet will rotate properly. It is a lot harder to begin with the shape of the neck opening in the main plates and try to make the neck lames approach roundness than it is to work down from roundness and make the main plates fit the neck.

I have done it both ways, and there is no question in my mind that it is better in every particular to start at the top.

Mac

Thanks for responding Mac. That helps a bunch. I've been planning to work top down on the neck lames. It seemed the best way to work with the known dimensions of my neck/arming doublet collar. To be clear- do you start the entire gorget with the top neck lame or just the neck lame assembly? Wade could probably start where ever he wants but I need all the help I can get!

As Bender mentioned I need to add hinge/pin arrangement test pieces to my to-do list for after I am happy with my roll and before moving to the final 1050.

Here is the test piece for roll. On this gorget the roll is done in an unusual way. The roll cavity is filled with rolled edge material rather than wire. Like a metal Hostess Hoho. Its a neat detail and since I am trying to reproduce this gorget I'm doing it this way. Here is an image of the original.
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-201-pin-open.jpg

Here is the first pass through the top edge that becomes the roll. Done on a swage block and thin rounded face raising hammer. http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 180654.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 180733.jpg

Top edge curled. Drawn down.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 181740.jpg

Roll turned roughly.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 200107.jpg

From the otherside. Note the witness marks. I love them! Much better than sharpie or soapstone. The metal rolled at a different rate on the ends due to heat. This should not be an issue on the final since most of that area will be cut off as fodder for the hinge overlap of the lame flat.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 223621.jpg

Some of that tendency can me dressed with another hot pass overlapping the roll and flat from the interior.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 223500.jpg

Here is the outside of the lame after wirebrushing scale from it. http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 223600.jpg

Next up- I think I am going to do another test to dial in which hammers and passes get the result I want with the roll. An 1/8" added to the roll edge may fill the roll cavity better and look more like the original. A short thin raising stake might help turn the edge of the roll consistantly as well.

The test piece is very resistant to flattening against the the roll. I can only imagine this will increase with 1050.

Stay tuned for the final top neck lame. I'm also considering doing brass capped rivets, only because that is what is on the original. So this might get kind of involved. Thanks for all the help and feel free to continue the dialog on what I need to do differently/better.

[Johann ColdIron]

I just went and checked the thicknesses I have listed on the original. .050 for the back plate is about right. The front on mine is actually thicker than .06, it gets above .08 in places. It would probably work out nicely from some nice "13 gauge". But I expect that is really unnecessary.

I had fun discussing and working with you.

Just wait for his notes on the roll at the top......

Wade

Wow, thicker than I thought in the front! It does have some heft to it. Good thing I don't actually need it to be Proof!.

As we talked about, this project started out as an attempt at a light weight crossover kit and has morphed into a reproduction. The original goal remains the same- Now that we have C&T at SCA events I want to be able to move from Armoured to Rapier to Cut and Thrust at the same event with minimum gear exchange. I've worn steel/ plastic and a mix of both. I see accurate, tempered armour to be the best solution.

Jeeze this is a sickness. I just realized I need to base some of my BP measurements on voiders!

[Mac]

Johann,

Stop! You will save yourself a lot of trouble if you make the neck lame assembly first. The uppermost lame must be round and planar, so that the helmet will rotate properly. It is a lot harder to begin with the shape of the neck opening in the main plates and try to make the neck lames approach roundness than it is to work down from roundness and make the main plates fit the neck.

I have done it both ways, and there is no question in my mind that it is better in every particular to start at the top.

Mac

Thanks for responding Mac. That helps a bunch. I've been planning to work top down on the neck lames. It seemed the best way to work with the known dimensions of my neck/arming doublet collar. To be clear- do you start the entire gorget with the top neck lame or just the neck lame assembly? Wade could probably start where ever he wants but I need all the help I can get!

I begin the entire gorget with the uppermost "ring". When I have that all hinged and pinned, I work my down, alternating between back and front lames. When the whole neck assembly is looking about right I template and build the back main plate. Only when that whole thing fits well, do I make the front main plate.

From the otherside. Note the witness marks. I love them! Much better than sharpie or soapstone. The metal rolled at a different rate on the ends due to heat. This should not be an issue on the final since most of that area will be cut off as fodder for the hinge overlap of the lame flat.

The ends of any hem will try to get out of control, whether or not heat is involved. I usually add some sacrificial material to a gorget neck hem so that the ends will be trimmed away. As you say, some will be trimmed from the back in the process of making hinging and pinning; so that mostly takes care of its self. An extra 1/2" of material on each end of the front hem will probably help.

I use a circle template cut out or thin ply or Masonite to help me to judge when the hem (and the completed assembly) is truly round and planar. A little block of wood on the back of the template will serve as a handle and make it easier to use.

[Otto von Teich]

Lookin good Johann!

[Johann ColdIron]

I begin the entire gorget with the uppermost "ring". When I have that all hinged and pinned, I work my down, alternating between back and front lames. When the whole neck assembly is looking about right I template and build the back main plate. Only when that whole thing fits well, do I make the front main plate.

Thanks for the clarification. Hopefully it will help the next guy starting one of these. I'll report back how it goes mating the finished lame assembly and collar assem as I have it. I'd hate to go backwards unless it proves to be necessary.

The ends of any hem will try to get out of control, whether or not heat is involved. I usually add some sacrificial material to a gorget neck hem so that the ends will be trimmed away. As you say, some will be trimmed from the back in the process of making hinging and pinning; so that mostly takes care of its self. An extra 1/2" of material on each end of the front hem will probably help.

I use a circle template cut out or thin ply or Masonite to help me to judge when the hem (and the completed assembly) is truly round and planar. A little block of wood on the back of the template will serve as a handle and make it easier to use.

Great idea! I'll crank out a template before I get started on the final product. Definitely adding extra material. I tend to work subtractively when possible. Less crying that way...

Off to the shop for some work on the test pieces. Thanks all for the advice and kind words!

[Johann ColdIron]

Just a brief update and weird question.

I am working on a test neck roll (now in 1050) to codify which hammers and forms to work through. While that was cooling I did some measurements wearing the collar in period clothing. This was a follow up of the rough measurements I started this project with taken over a modern shirt. My neck, with doublet & shirt collar, looks to be about 19" in circumference or just over 6" in diameter.

I put the gorget collar on and the wooden core buttons of the doublet make it a bit tight. I've seen paintings where the top few buttons are flat or lacing. Now I know why. Still within wearable dimensions but my next doublet will include that feature. Deepening the central crease on the front plate would work as well. Always measure with the inner layers included folks! I preach it to people in my shop and I should follow suit... so to speak.

While I was working this 4" sample it occured to me that it would be helpful to pin the workpiece (2 3/4" band) at the circumference to keep it from distorting. While doing the roll it constantly wants to open/flatten. Even hot this is an issue and since it is essentially a flat round ring, why not rivet it round before basic roll forming? Once the edge is turned it will resist flattening on it's own. Just include enough overlap so that the hinge material can be cut from both ends of both pieces. You really don't even have to roll the overlapping ends except for a bit to allow for separating and trimming.

Then I remembered a unresolved hole in the front left upper neck lame!

It appears a round hole with cylindrical sides . Good for a rivet but asymetrically placed. No companion on a regularly symetrical piece. It also does not match up with any assembly rivet locations like the ones in line with the leathers as far as I can tell.

Its visible in:
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-201.jpg
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-2 ... e-open.jpg
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-2 ... e-open.jpg

Why is it there other than to pin the lame in rough circumference? It could have been easily filled with a headless rivet upon assembly but lost post work life.

What do you all think? Am I missing something? Is there some completely unrelated use for this hole? Am I on crack? Any theory, spectulation,or confirmation is welcome.

[Tom B.]

Any update?

I was just looking through my photos of Wade's original I took at Hammer Fest back in August 2012.
This was one of my favorites pieces he brought.

[wcallen]

Tom,

We have talked a little offline about silly details, but I don't know whether he has made any more real progress.

I am glad you like it. It is probably one of the nicer pieces I own. It probably came from a pretty good quality armour. Very plain, very simple, but very nicely made. If it had un-collapsed leathers in it, it would probably work very nicely too.

Wade

[Johann ColdIron]

Hi Guys!

The holidays took me out of the shop. Long trip to see family. I did manage to get some patterning of the hinge parts and more roll experimentation done. I have pics of some of it. The hinge parts are integral to the ends of the collar lames. They have to be correct the first time round as this work will be done after the roll is formed. The other ends should be much easier to trim to fit as they are a more simple pin arrangement with nd offset plate ends that can be done after the whole thing is fit together (I think).

Here is the the inside of the orginal from Wades site. Notice the detail of the little tab that extends below the roll on the rear collar lame. It helps keep the hinge pin in place. I think this arrangement also allows it to articulate at the angle required by the assembly without an unsightly notch visible when shut.

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-2 ... e-open.jpg

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-2 ... e-open.jpg

Here is a picture of the original that shows the tab from the outside and the tightness of the hinge assembly. Note that it is flat on the outside and you can see one of the flush rivets. I placed my holes in the patterns based on their locations in the various pics.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 164558.jpg

In this pic of the inside of the original it shows the interaction of that tab and notch. Why they did not just knock off the end of the jutting bit at the top of the folded end is anyones guess. But I kept it in the pattern.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 163830.jpg


I tried to take all that into account in the pattern pieces. Here is a shot of the outside. The tab is below the black line. The actual work piece patterns will need to be much longer to include the entire lames.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 213505.jpg

Here is a shot of the inside turned ends that form the hinge. The light pencil line is where the original is beveled thinner. All of the roll of the hinge knuckle is on the inside.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 213441.jpg

Here are both parts unfolded. Note the notch in the right hand piece at the top of the folded part. That helps clear the tab on the other side. Might not be neccessary but it does make the whole thing close up with no gaps.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 220548.jpg

This pic shows how much the hinge articulates on the original when open enough to get your neck in. In it the end of the tab is clearly shown to be part of the base of the roll. Also note how nicely the the inside ends of all the lames are beveled. This is a very nicely made Gorget!
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 164316.jpg

I hope to jump back into this and get it moving soon. My wrist has been a bit wonky for some reason (unrelated to armouring) so I have been giving it a bit of time to rehab. I'll post up my progress as soon as I can.

[Pitbull Armory]

Johann,

Stop! You will save yourself a lot of trouble if you make the neck lame assembly first. The uppermost lame must be round and planar, so that the helmet will rotate properly. It is a lot harder to begin with the shape of the neck opening in the main plates and try to make the neck lames approach roundness than it is to work down from roundness and make the main plates fit the neck.

I have done it both ways, and there is no question in my mind that it is better in every particular to start at the top.

Mac

Thanks for responding Mac. That helps a bunch. I've been planning to work top down on the neck lames. It seemed the best way to work with the known dimensions of my neck/arming doublet collar. To be clear- do you start the entire gorget with the top neck lame or just the neck lame assembly? Wade could probably start where ever he wants but I need all the help I can get!

I begin the entire gorget with the uppermost "ring". When I have that all hinged and pinned, I work my down, alternating between back and front lames. When the whole neck assembly is looking about right I template and build the back main plate. Only when that whole thing fits well, do I make the front main plate.

From the otherside. Note the witness marks. I love them! Much better than sharpie or soapstone. The metal rolled at a different rate on the ends due to heat. This should not be an issue on the final since most of that area will be cut off as fodder for the hinge overlap of the lame flat.

The ends of any hem will try to get out of control, whether or not heat is involved. I usually add some sacrificial material to a gorget neck hem so that the ends will be trimmed away. As you say, some will be trimmed from the back in the process of making hinging and pinning; so that mostly takes care of its self. An extra 1/2" of material on each end of the front hem will probably help.

I use a circle template cut out or thin ply or Masonite to help me to judge when the hem (and the completed assembly) is truly round and planar. A little block of wood on the back of the template will serve as a handle and make it easier to use.

Hi guys, the ends of most rolls always get away from me too, and I always do them cold. I always use this technique to fix it, just put the top of the roll or hem up against the step on your anvil, or any other step you have handy, and take a soft copper or brass drift and tap that monkey a few times, the larger out of control area will tighten up into a nice roll for you easy.


Have a good week

Pitbull

[Buster]

Any more progress? I'm looking forward to seeing this completed.
Also, has anyone here ever considered selling instruction packets for later period armour? Along the lines of what Talbot sells, only targeted at the 16th/17th centuries?

[wcallen]

Any more progress? I'm looking forward to seeing this completed.
Also, has anyone here ever considered selling instruction packets for later period armour? Along the lines of what Talbot sells, only targeted at the 16th/17th centuries?

I expect there wasn't as much interest in it when Talbot (Doug Strong) was doing this and he cares more about the earlier stuff anyway. I know there was very little 16th c. stuff out there "back in the day"

Who is doing solid 16th c. stuff these days with time and energy to do the packets? I have done it, but you wouldn't like my version of the packet ..... "cut a piece of metal roughly this shape, raise, dish, mash, bash, bend and whack it a lot until it looks like this, trim off any excess, roll the edges, clean it up, make buckles, make hinges, oh wait, you should have made these other pieces at the same time so that it will all go together....

And most of the parts of the 16th c. armour fit with each other in such a way that the instructions for the breastplate would start with "build your gorget". The next step would be "decide whether you will ever have a backplate, if so, build it at the same time as the breastplate." The instructions for a pauldron would start with "build your gorget, cuirass and arms."

I do have patterns for all of the stuff I made for my kid. Much of it is 16th/17th c. The patterns even (sometimes) have some notes on them. But turning such a thing into real instructions really requires a lot of care and building a few more sets of each.

I haven't seen any packets like Doug did for 16th or 17th c. stuff. Maybe something is out there.

We will see if John has any more to say about his gorget. I haven't heard much from him recently, so I would guess there hasn't been much progress recently.

Wade

[Johann ColdIron]

We will see if John has any more to say about his gorget. I haven't heard much from him recently, so I would guess there hasn't been much progress recently.

Wade

Coincidentally I just sent you an email.

No progress yet. Sorry about that guys. Gave my wonky wrist a break. I think it is tendonitis. Seems somewhat better as I was able to do some armoured combat last night without much complaint from it.

I'll also confess to a bit of armourers block. That roll at the neck is a bit of a bear and I am not happy with my technique yet. Next step is 1050 and I concerned with screwing it up. I need to get over it. One of the many reasons I do not do armour for money.

[wcallen]

Go for it. Whack the metal. What is a little 1050 worth anyway?



Wade

[Scott Martin]

I'll second Wade - if I had spent more time working on steel and less worryinag about wasting metal I'd be a much better armourer now.

I'm working on a number of tutorials now, but most of my stuff is concentrated on "sub techniques" like how to make hinges, buckles and tools - haven't yet got to the point where I do "here's a piece, here is how you build it. I plan to have a few of these done by summer, but I don't know if there is a commercial market for it. I also gravitate towards the 15th century, but there is a similar amount of integration on late 15th / early 16th century stuff that I like.

On the plus side web hosting is fairly cheap so it's mostly costing me time and forgoing a couple of starbucks drinks a month in hosting costs, which is good for my waistline anyway

Scott Martin

[Johann ColdIron]

Thanks for the encouragement guys! I'll post some pics once some progress is made.

Like was said...its only 1050.

[Mac]

No progress yet. Sorry about that guys. Gave my wonky wrist a break. I think it is tendonitis. Seems somewhat better as I was able to do some armoured combat last night without much complaint from it.

I'll also confess to a bit of armourers block. That roll at the neck is a bit of a bear and I am not happy with my technique yet. Next step is 1050 and I concerned with screwing it up. I need to get over it. One of the many reasons I do not do armour for money.

Johann,

Part of me says "take care of that wrist".

The other part advises that you spend some time experimenting with different techniques for doing the neck hem. These things really are the hardest part of a gorget. If you start with the neck and work down, like I recommend, you don't have much invested if the top lame doesn't work out right. I usually make these things way too long, and cut away what I don't need. This lets me cut off the ends, which never quite roll correctly.

I leave it to yo to balance joint maintenance and experimentation...but if it hurts, take a brake.

Mac

[Scott Martin]

So I got to thinking about why that top roll is a "jelly roll" instead of the usual hollow roll, and then I started wondering about how I would construct something like that. The answer I came up with was that the roll may have been done first, and then the hinge and shaping. With a solid roll, the piece can be formed after rolling, with a hollow roll the roll would collapse.

Here's a prototype with the hinge done first, then the roll

Small_Gorget_hinge.jpg (92.36 KiB) Viewed 3452 times

This would be a lot tighter except that I tried Mac's method for hinges (first try = generally poor results) and cut too far into the hinge. there are a couple of other errors that were made which I plan to rectify in the next one, but the cut worked brilliantly:

Small_Gorget_hinge_diagonal.jpg (96.11 KiB) Viewed 3452 times

Nest the plates so that the hinges lock together and cut the 45 degree bevel - the only reason that my bevel isn't perfect is because I fitted it assuming that the hinges were "tight" - the hinge isn't, so trying to "fit" this made me grind out the 2mm of material I really needed

Getting the hinge in is really tricky, since it is held at the top by the roll and at the bottom by the back part of the collar, which is bent in to clear the front assembly. On Wade's piece this pin was added from the top, and then the roll was pushed back over the pin.

Other notes - make sure that you "set" (rivet) your hinge closed before you start hammering this into shape, or it will pull your hinges open and distort the shape.

Johann may have some useful construction tidbits by the time he's ready to get back to this project. The other important "gotcha" is that you should trim the line on the front plate (where it drops from the hinge) as early as possible, or the front/back overlap of these 2 pieces makes it really hard to fit the hinge, and get the hinge pin inserted.

Wade, can I get some measurements please?

• Total height of the top collar plate from the top of roll to the bottom of the plate (my est. 1.5")
• Is this height identical all the way around?
• height of the hinge assembly - the 4 knuckles only (my est ~3/4")
• height of the "tab" on the inside of the collar (part of the back of the collar assembly - visible on my first photo - my new est. 1/2")
• inside diameter and outside diameter of the neck when closed (I may ask for scanned patterns to assist in the prototyping)

Note that the *current* height of this plate on my example is ~1.75" with the hinge being about 1"

Thanks!

Scott Martin

[Johann ColdIron]

You know Scott, Wade had suggested to do the roll first as well. I hadn't considered that the jelly roll would keep it from deforming. The roll does sit outside of the plate a fair amount but a mallet could persuade it to curve. But this means that the roll does not keep in the hinge pin. The head of the pin was captured by the slot at the base of the roll.

I'll give that a try since my roll was taking a great deal of care and heat to get it to roll up. I think that technique could work but would be best suited to a coal forge where I could get the entire roll hot and run a hammer pass faster than was possible with a torch.

My notes say 5/8" overlap of plates. 2" total height of lames to the base of the roll. 1 1/4 lames. 19" ID circumference or 6.0625 diameter at roll. Not sure which of those are from the original or extrapolated. I'm sure Wade will chime in with the actual dimensions.

[wcallen]

I will try to get some measurements later.

The collars I did recently for the kid seemed to work out. I didn't do a "jelly roll" or a hollow roll. I put wire in the roll. Given that, I could do the whole thing cold in this order:

Wire the top.
Push it out into the roll form.
Curl up the plate to approximately the right form.
Cut the hinges into the end.
Fit the roll ends.
Make sure the hinge all fits nicely.
Finish shaping.
Put the pin in the other side.
offset the front plate.
Remove the rivet that held where the pin will be.
Bolt the other end until you need to do the final pin work - which will come after all the rest of the gorget is built, fitted and ready for final cleanup.

Wade

[Scott Martin]

If you look closely at the "cutting the angle" pic you will indeed see that the roll is wired - I used copper wire for the roll because it doesn't rust, and it's really just there as a non-deforming spacer. Well that and I've got a lot of it lying around from reno's so it's "free"

When you shape it with the roll already done it will accentuate it's anticlastic tendencies, so the roll will push to the outside - which is what you want if this is intended to engage a helm. It's a bit tricky to get the hinge section to curve, but my friends BFI (Brute Force and Ignorance) should serve - as long as I have the hinges riveted first!

This bit:
...
Cut the hinges into the end.
Fit the roll ends.
Make sure the hinge all fits nicely.
...
will be tricky because of the hinge geometry. If you have the correct fit on the overlap, then I'd advise assembling the hinge and then shaping, since the hinge will be structurally strong enough to handle this. You may need to heat the hinge area to do this nicely, so make sure you don't go past orange - welding your hinge would be less than optimal!

Scott Martin

[Johann ColdIron]

Did a flat test piece in 1050. Seemed to work pretty well though it work hardened on me and started to resist my will. I may anneal on the final pieces

Ran it through through a couple channels of my swage block and turned the edge.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 98183c.jpg

Interior rolled up
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 6d17c6.jpg

Exterior
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 719b75.jpg

End of the jelly roll.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... f88082.jpg

Put it back into one of the swage block channels and hammered from the rear to offset the roll further outside the flat and then went over it on the horn of the anvil with a leather mallet. Shown is the final circumference.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181 ... 9d8477.jpg

Looks like I am off to the races! Thanks Scott for the prod. Guess I should have listened to Wade the first time he suggested to do it flat.

[wcallen]

Did a flat test piece in 1050. Seemed to work pretty well though it work hardened on me and started to resist my will. I may anneal on the final pieces

Looks like I am off to the races! Thanks Scott for the prod. Guess I should have listened to Wade the first time he suggested to do it flat.

When in doubt, try it the easy way. If it doesn't work, go on the to hard way.

Honestly, I didn't know how it would work with the jelly roll instead of wire, but the center part sticking out could easily be there to help prevent the roll from collapsing.

Depending on how hard it is to curl up after it has the roll, you can anneal it or heat it up and curl it hot. You can actually get a pretty good heat on the roll with a torch.

Wade

[Scott Martin]

Johann, you're going to need a tighter roll - if it isn't "filled" then you will get collapse when you start to bend the gorget curve, since it will be easier for the roll to compress into the space than to stretch. If the roll is solid (or completely filled) then it *must* stretch, so the deformation won't be noticable.

Wade, can you confirm that the first lamination is 1.25"?

Note to folks at home - the second lamination bends *under* the top articulation at sides (the hinge and the closure side) so it looks like the top (hinged) plate has a "tab" that passes under the hinge pin.

Scott Martin

[Johann ColdIron]

When in doubt, try it the easy way. If it doesn't work, go on the to hard way.

Honestly, I didn't know how it would work with the jelly roll instead of wire, but the center part sticking out could easily be there to help prevent the roll from collapsing.

Depending on how hard it is to curl up after it has the roll, you can anneal it or heat it up and curl it hot. You can actually get a pretty good heat on the roll with a torch.

Wade

One thing I learned from working on cars..."if it's too hard you are probably doing it wrong"

On the short test piece the jelly roll helped resist collapse when curling. It stretched the tube a bit and that actually helped even out the roll. The roll did seem to want to shift from offset to in line with the flat so I think I will offset set it further to compensate.

[Johann ColdIron]

Johann, you're going to need a tighter roll - if it isn't "filled" then you will get collapse when you start to bend the gorget curve, since it will be easier for the roll to compress into the space than to stretch. If the roll is solid (or completely filled) then it *must* stretch, so the deformation won't be noticable.

I agree that I need to roll it tighter. It opened up more than I expected on the test piece. I think I need to more tightly fold in the edge to give it a set.

It was more resistant to collapse than I expected as it is though.