Close Helm / Sallets by Helmschmied - Additional info/photos

[Tom B.]

Thanks Mac I think that that answers my questions & satisfies my curiosity on that subject, for now at least.

I found another Flickr album with some high resolution photos from the Met.

It is not a large album but the photos are nice and big.
Like this 2046x2448 pic of Maximilian's sallet

[Tom B.]

How much head / neck movement do you get from a set-up like from A79?


I handled Wade's A-201 gorget (circa 1560) in Texas but did not really get a feel for the movement.
I will take a few minutes and see if I shot some video of it.
I know I took a bunch of photos of details not sure if I took anything showing the movement.

[Tom B.]

A couple of more photos.
Anyone know what their source is?
Probably a book but which one?

[Mac]

How much head / neck movement do you get from a set-up like from A79?

That's a difficult question to answer. The short answer is "just like any close helmet and gorget".... But how do you describe or define that?

Another way to look at it is, "If it was good enough for them; It's good enough for me". I realize that I like this sort of answer better than a lot of people do, but it seems to me like the sine qua non of historical reconstruction. If you make a thing just like the real one, it will behave just like the real one. If you find it does not move enough to allow you to do a particular thing, you have to conclude that they didn't do that.

Mac

[wcallen]

First - What Mac said.

Second - using just the right leathers appears to make a gorget (like mine that you played with) pretty flexible. It can bend down in any direction pretty nicely.

Third - some bending really is over-rated. I think what you would actually be most worried about is a little bit of tilt (which should work fine) and rotation. I don't have a helmet that actually locks onto the collar, so I don't know how well that works. I expect they could get it to work well enough. The principle isn't all that different from what they did in upper arms all the time and that needs to rotate at least as much as your head.

Wade

[Bender]

The other thing to consider is that full range of motion isn't always a good thing. Good armor limited ranges to where you could do the motions you needed-but kept the body from doing things like bending joints backwards-where they could be dislocated or sprained.

Or a neck from being broken from a blow or a fall.

[Tom B.]

That's a difficult question to answer. The short answer is "just like any close helmet and gorget".... But how do you describe or define that?

Another way to look at it is, "If it was good enough for them; It's good enough for me". I realize that I like this sort of answer better than a lot of people do, but it seems to me like the sine qua non of historical reconstruction. If you make a thing just like the real one, it will behave just like the real one. If you find it does not move enough to allow you to do a particular thing, you have to conclude that they didn't do that.

Mac

Mac & Wade,

I have come around to Mac's way of thinking on this in the last few years.
However, not too many of us any experience with how a real close helm and gorget move.
Even if we were to successfully make one as close as we can from very detailed photos, we would still wonder if it moved like the real one.

I took a look at my detailed shots of Wade's A-201 and those on his site.
These do give enough info to make a pretty educated estimate on movement.

On another tangent.

I really like the over all look of the Thun Sketch I posted earlier.
The helm looks more sallet like than A79 but with the same sort of gorget.

The A79 appears to not have the "turning grove" on the helm side, this is unlike later close helms I have seen.
I do like the look of the helm/gorget interface on A79 better than that of the sketch.
In the sketch there is a visible roped area which looks like the helm side "turning groove" I am used to seeing on later close helms.
This is one of the reasons I want to see photos of the separate. What is the gorget / helm interface like.

What are your best guesses as to the A79 helm interface?
Is it just reversed from the later close helm examples, turned in helm edge and grove on gorget?

Are there any close helms with interfaces like this that you know of?

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Yes, the bottom edge of the helm is flanged inward, and the top lame of the gorget has a recessed groove.

[Tom B.]

Thanks James, I had hoped you would see these threads and chime in.

[Tom B.]

Found some more photos:




A couple with the visor fully closed.
The sight is much wider than I expected.




These are from the exhibition I mentioned in my first post.
There were many more photos from this display in a now lost thread.

[Tom B.]

and some more ...



Larger version of Blair's drawing

[Tom B.]

Met info page for Maxmillian's Sallet

Weight = 4 lb 15.7 oz (2267 g)

[Tableau]

Tom, this thread is the bomb diggity. I'm thinking of elegant ways of making a sallet I'm building suitable for SCA combat. These pictures are giving me ideas...

[Tom B.]

Tom, this thread is the bomb diggity. I'm thinking of elegant ways of making a sallet I'm building suitable for SCA combat. These pictures are giving me ideas...

Glad it was of help.
Take a look at this other thread I started : Close Helm / Sallets - Modern Interpretations

[Tom B.]

[Tom B.]

Are the figures in this illustration wearing helms like the KHM A79?

Anyone have a better resolution version?

This is from the Weisskunig (White King) by Hans Burgkmair for Emperor Maximilian I.
The title is:
How the Young White King had learned to fight with the Bohemian Pavise and the Hussar Targe

[Tom B.]

While trying to virtually fit my head into the Met close sallet I discovered some interesting things.

I was having some trouble fitting my head into the sallet (via Gimp photo editing software).


So I decided to see how Emperor Maximilian I would fit since this is supposed to be his helm.

First look at the differences in our profiles (chin especially)


Now look at his head in the sallet.

[Tom B.]

the Met's page with info about Maximillian's Close Sallet

High resolution B&W photo here

Sallet of Emperor Maximilian I

Attributed to Lorenz Helmschmid (German, Augsburg, ca. 1445–1516)
Date: ca. 1490–95 Culture: German, Augsburg Medium: Steel, gilt copper Dimensions: Weight, 4 lb. 15.7 oz. (2261 g) Classification: Helmets Credit Line: Bashford Dean Memorial Collection, Gift of Edward S. Harkness, 1929 Accession Number: 29.156.45
This artwork is currently on display in Gallery 373

This sallet was a new type probably invented by Lorenz Helmschmid for Emperor Maximilian I (1459–1519) around the time he became head of the Holy Roman Empire in 1493. Its construction, with the falling buffe (chin defense) pivoting on the same points as the visor, anticipates the development of close helmets around 1510. The gilt fleur-de-lis trim, which originally bordered the entire helmet, is a typical late Gothic decoration on armors of high quality and is found on several that belonged to Maximilian and other members of the Habsburg court.

[Tom B.]

Here are some new photos of A79 with the visor open. I have these courtesy of Peter Spätling via Facebook.

[coreythompsonhm]

Thanks Good find!

[Armadillo]

Wow, even having seen that helmet in person my understanding was way off. These photos are great. Another fine example of how my preconceptions influence my perception.

-Adair

[coreythompsonhm]

I hadn't noticed the "bevor" locking mechanism until these pictures.

[Mac]

The more you look at that helmet the weirder it seems. I had not heretofore known about the double thickness on the lower edge of the visor. I suppose that is meant to embrace the upper edge of the bevor in an impervious sort of way.

Neither had I ever noticed the breaths under that lip on the bevor.

Mac

[wcallen]

It is truly an odd piece. I expect that there are more interesting details to be learned if we could get it more open.

I noticed that double layer too. very odd.

Wade

[Tom B.]

I have always been curious about the oddly reversed turner consrtuction of the gorget / helm interface.

[Tom B.]

Neither had I ever noticed the breaths under that lip on the bevor.

Mac

I would like to see I nice upward shot to see exactly how these are laid out.
These had previously been invisible to me too.

[Johann ColdIron]

Nice pics, fascinating construction details.

[Tom B.]

Mac has pointed out that there are pics, at least of the close sallet from the Met, in Matthias Goll's PHD thesis.
This document is available for download (over 3 gigabytes).

Forum thread about the thesis

[Tom B.]

More A79 photos:
including a upward shot showing the slots in the bevor.

[AB Hammer]

Greetings Tom

I like your string here and nice pics. I haven"t seen some of those examples.



Alan

[Tom B.]

Mac & Wade,

Take a look at the top most of the two photos I last posted.
It looks like I can see both layers of the visor outside of the bevor.
I am guessing that this is just another case of the museum display not having the visor closed correctly.

[Tom B.]

Greetings Tom

I like your string here and nice pics. I haven"t seen some of those examples.



Alan

Good to see you on here.
Hope things are going well.

[Tom B.]

I think that Jiri & I may have found a "Bashford Dean Repair" on the close sallet at the Met.

We were trying to work out the details of fit for the visor, bevor, and decorative trim.
I was confused by the offset of the lower edge of the visor and the sallet body in the area of their overlap just below the spring pin latch. This looks odd especially if the decorative trim on the sallet edge was still in place.

We started digging.
Look at these details from the same area on other Helmschmied sallets at the KHM.



Bottom edges are flush and the trims match up well, particularly on the last one above.

This seemed to indicate that something was not as it seemed about the sallet at the Met. What is going on here?
Was visor trimmed?
Is this the right visor?
Lots of possible reasons

I went back and dug out the 1920 photo of this sallet from when Dean found it in Istanbul.

Zommed in:

What is going on on the bottom corner of the sallet body below the latch?
Is this from an artifact from a bad photo, a shadow, or actual damage (missing metal)?

This is where the photos from Goll's thesis come in handy


Pretty definitive evidence that this area has been modified.
The corner at least and probably the latch too.

[Tom B.]

There are other areas that show some apparent repair work as well:

1. & 2. two areas like the above post about latch area but on oppsite side.
3. Near point of tail.
4. On right side of bevor lame

[Mac]

That certainly looks like a welded repair to me. It's probably filled with material taken from some "inconsequential" object.... like a bevor from Chalcis or Rhodes.

I have put circles in the places where I think I see welded-up holes. It's hard to tell without looking at the object, but that's where I would have riveted the catch spring. Perhaps Dr. Dean's welder got carried away with the task.



Mac