The Armour Archive

I have been interested in the early close helms by Lorenz Helmschmied that are in the shape of a sallet.
I think that there are only three or four of these in existence today, one in New York at the Met another in Vienna at the Kunsthistorisches Museum the 3rd I am not sure about.

I am thinking of commissioning a new spring steel head defense inspired by these pieces and would like to collect as much info and as many pics as possible.
Please share any info, links, pics, observations.

Here are some pics that I do have.

From the Met:


From the KHM:


Is this the 3rd one pictured in Grubers thread? Any one know where this one is located?

Here is an interesting web page about a very lucky mans trip to the KHM
It shows some low resolution pics of him wearing some of the armour on display there!

There was a thread several years ago about the 2nd helm shown in my 1st post.
Apparently it was part of an exhibition and was displayed in a case with mirrors so that you could get good views from multiple angles.
I think this thread was lost in the 2007 crash, anyone have any photos?

Alas, this seems to be the only good photo I snatched of the sallet in question while I was at the KHM.

Have you seen the sallet/close helm in this thread? viewtopic.php?f=1&t=143001

coreythompsonhm wrote:Have you seen the sallet/close helm in this thread? viewtopic.php?f=1&t=143001

Yes I was just going to post a pic of that one.
It is also at the KHM.

Well I am not sure how I missed it but it looks like the 3rd example I posted in my original post is also at the KHM.
It is on the mounted display that is between the A60 & A62 harnesses.
I think it is A69?

Profile view of the mounted display

While looking for more photos I found this 1805 picture set from the KHM on Flickr!

Lots of good photos of thousands of pieces of armour.

Tom B. wrote:

coreythompsonhm wrote:Have you seen the sallet/close helm in this thread? viewtopic.php?f=1&t=143001

Yes I was just going to post a pic of that one.
It is also at the KHM.

What time frame is this armour from?

and a question about the function of this helm, bevor and gorget.

What this looks like to me: The gorget is made of concentric rings of plate that bed forward and back when you nod your head.

The Bevor is not *directly* connected to the gorget, allowing the wearer to turn his head?

The Bevor is connected to the helmet with spring pins and or hinges.


Which part(s) of my comments in blue are correct or not?

Check out the thread I linked. We discussed a lot of your questions. I am still unsure how the "bevor" is locked closed on the left side. From the pictures I have seen, there isnt a visible closure device.

A quick rundown:

1. The bevor is a part of the helmet. It is hinged on the left and gull wings out away from the face.
2. The top lame of the gorget has a recessed groove for the helm to fit into, acting as a turner.
3. Yes, essentially the gorget is concentric rings. It appears each ring is comprised of a back half and a front half.

Hope this helped.

Yes, thank you it does!

I had a look at the other thread after posting in this one...

I am currently making my first Bevor over in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=158072

My eventual goal is to make an assembly like the one pictured here. Do you know the date on this Armour? I looked for the origin of the picture but could not find the source of it, just links to links...

Oskar der Drachen wrote:
Do you know the date on this Armour?

Dated to 1492, part of the KHM catalogue number A79 - S.111 harness.
I just acquired a KHM catalogue and will need to translate the German to find out exactly what they have to say about the 3 helms in that collection.

An illustration from Gamber's article on the Armour's of Emperor Maximillian in the Thun Sketch Book.
Der Turnierharnisch Zur Zeit König Maximilians I. Und Das Thunsche Skizzenbuch.

By the way does anyone have a good scan of this article? I have a scan of an old photocopy so it is not the greatest.
Also does anyone know of any other sources for the drawings from the Thun Sketchbook?

Looks like the Met example was purchased by Dean in 1920 from the Arsenal in Constantinople.

Need to find this article:

A. V. B. Norman, "A Comparison of Three Helmets,"
Waffen und Kostümkunde 1 (1959) pp. 16-21.

In which the "Helmschmid connection" between the helm at the Met and the ones at the KHM are established.

Blair's take on these helmets.

Another interesting set of photos.

17 posts and 12 are by me.
Anyone else have anything to say about these helms?

Every time I get ready to post something, I find that you have posted it already!

The only thing I have to add right now is this observation... All of the sallets of close-helmet form have breaths in the bevors. I think this is necessary because the wearer is not at liberty to simply tip his helmet back when he wants more air. By contrast, normal bevors almost never have breaths.

Mac

Mac wrote:Every time I get ready to post something, I find that you have posted it already!

The only thing I have to add right now is this observation... All of the sallets of close-helmet form have breaths in the bevors. I think this is necessary because the wearer is not at liberty to simply tip his helmet back when he wants more air. By contrast, normal bevors almost never have breaths.

Mac

Thanks Mac,

I will make another thread tomorrow with some pics of modern made close sallets.
I have a few pics of some interesting examples to post.

Is the sight on the Met example really that narrow ?
It looks very small in every pic and the right profile appears to show the locking pin seated.

The visor sticks out well proud of the skull this would seem to obscure vision quite a bit.
I guess the narrow sight and the visor position also help keep lances out of your eye.

I really have nothing more to contribute, but have been watching this thread with great interest. I have not had time to research more, but it has been on the to do list.

Tom B. wrote:17 posts and 12 are by me.
Anyone else have anything to say about these helms?

Hehe, I know when to keep my mouth shut and my eyes open sometimes Tom. Thanks for posting all the great pics and info.

Have a good week

Pitbull

Tom B. wrote:While looking for more photos I found this 1805 picture set from the KHM on Flickr!

Lots of good photos of thousands of pieces of armour.

Good Lord Tom, Thank you for posting all the good pics of real armor, That flikr link blew me away, I dont get a chance to look up stuff like that as much as I should, and the more I look at it I see how very far off alot of my pieces have been in the past. I will make a point to research every piece of armor I build in the future.

Thank you

Pitbull

Both of the "close-helmet-type" sallets in the KHM have their gorget lames attached with leathers. You can see the "anchor" rivet right below the constructions rivets on the bottom lame. The one in the Met may have been this way originally, but it's hard to tell. It is missing at least one lame, and the one that survives is currently riveted in place.

Mac

The KHM catalog numbering system is driving me crazy.
I does not help that my German reading skill is very low.
It makes it really hard to decide which sections of German text to try and muddle through.

How can so many objects be designated inventory number A79?

Tom B. wrote:The KHM catalog numbering system is driving me crazy.
I does not help that my German reading skill is very low.
It makes it really hard to decide which sections of German text to try and muddle through.

How can so many objects be designated inventory number A79?

From the experience of our artifact numbering system I would guess that A79 is missing a prefix # of some sort. Ours usually have a date prefix, collection #, then a number of the artifact in the collection. So 1922.6.1= Collected in 1922. Collection 6 of that year. Artifact 1
or the Inkwell of Zebulon Vance.

Mac wrote:Both of the "close-helmet-type" sallets in the KHM have their gorget lames attached with leathers. You can see the "anchor" rivet right below the constructions rivets on the bottom lame. The one in the Met may have been this way originally, but it's hard to tell. It is missing at least one lame, and the one that survives is currently riveted in place.

Mac

So you are saying that they are completely attached with leathers?
3 leathers?
One on each side and the 3rd in the center?

I would have guessed riveted articulation on the sides and a leather in the middle, but now I see the anchor rivets on the bottom lame.

I guess this would give quite a bit of head neck mobility.
Probably safe to assume that a mail standard would be worn underneath.

Anyone have pic of this one opened up?
How about the gorget separate from the helm?

How would the ones from the KHM be lined?
The Met example seems pretty straight forward and like a normal sallet.

Tom B. wrote:

Mac wrote:Both of the "close-helmet-type" sallets in the KHM have their gorget lames attached with leathers. You can see the "anchor" rivet right below the constructions rivets on the bottom lame. The one in the Met may have been this way originally, but it's hard to tell. It is missing at least one lame, and the one that survives is currently riveted in place.

Mac

So you are saying that they are completely attached with leathers?
3 leathers?
One on each side and the 3rd in the center?

Yes, three leathers.

Mac

Tom B. wrote:Anyone have pic of this one opened up?
How about the gorget separate from the helm?

I don't have any pics of it open, but you can see the hinge just under the pivot. The bevor swings open diagonally and takes the brass trim with it. There must be a corresponding catch on the other side.

This thing is really a sort of armet, but with a bevor instead of two cheek pieces. The back of the skull engages a flange at the top of the back of the gorget and the bevor engages the front. The tail is just stuck on there for looks.

Mac

Tom B. wrote:How would the ones from the KHM be lined?
The Met example seems pretty straight forward and like a normal sallet.

I presume that only the chin plate is lined, but I am only guessing. This would leave the breaths free. The result would be no less padded than the armets and close helmets that would come later. In fact, it would be better padded than the early armets. I have seen a pic of the lining of the 1440s armet in Churburg; there is no padding at all on the chin.

Mac

Mac wrote:This thing is really a sort of armet, but with a bevor instead of two cheek pieces. The back of the skull engages a flange at the top of the back of the gorget and the bevor engages the front. The tail is just stuck on there for looks.

Mac

That is why I did not originally put it in the thread.
The sketch I attached (several posts above) from the Thun Sketch book really is this like Helm but looks more sallet like.

Tom

Mac wrote:

Tom B. wrote:How would the ones from the KHM be lined?
The Met example seems pretty straight forward and like a normal sallet.

I presume that only the chin plate is lined, but I am only guessing. This would leave the breaths free. The result would be no less padded than the armets and close helmets that would come later. In fact, it would be better padded than the early armets. I have seen a pic of the lining of the 1440s armet in Churburg; there is no padding at all on the chin.

Mac

My original intention was the lining for the skull?
Lining attached to a strip with hidden rivets like a later close helm? I think I might see a few of the counter sunk rivets.

Tom,

Which part of lining the skull are you worried about?....the brow?

If there is a brow reenforce, either as part of the visor or as a separate piece, there should probably be a series of flush rivets securing a lining strip.

If the brow is exposed, there would probably be an internal steel strip to which the lining strip would be riveted. This strip is fastened into the inside of the brow of the helmet be a pair of rivets which will be located just above the corners of the eye slit. This is apparently done this way to avoid having exposed flush rivets on the brow. I guess that exposed flush rivets were thought to be a liability on account of being a possible lodgement for pointed projectile or a lance.

Mac