Was plate armor pointed through mail to underlying clothes?

[Tibbie Croser]

Please forgive my ignorance, but I'm curious. When plate armor pieces were being worn over full mail shirts or leggings, was the plate armor pointed to the arming clothes through the links of the mail? Or was the plate attached only to other pieces of plate?

Thank you.

[Guy Dawkins]

I don't believe we know. Is there direct proof that anything was pointed to arming clothes before the 15th century?

Someone tell me I'm wrong.

[Galfrid atte grene]

Plenty of 14th century effigies show points but it is impossible to tell whether they're attached to the mail or through it.
Today, I know people do it both ways.

[PartsAndTechnical]

You need to narrow your focus a bit.

Plate armour (cap-a-pied) makes its first serious emergence about 1275 with early coats of plates, greaves and shoulder protection to about 1670 for all intents and purposes.

And on average, each 35-odd years, we witness changes that grow significant enough to show new evolutionary paths.

[Sean M]

I don't believe we know. Is there direct proof that anything was pointed to arming clothes before the 15th century?

Someone tell me I'm wrong.

Kunz von Haberkorn, d. 1421, courtesy of Claude Blair and Effigies and Brasses. He has a loose garment between the maille and the arm harness, and no straps, so the arm harness has to be laced to or through the arming clothes.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... haberkorn/

[Ernst]

You need to narrow your focus a bit.

Plate armour (cap-a-pied) makes its first serious emergence about 1275 with early coats of plates, greaves and shoulder protection...

1275 is a bit early, considering that plate for the elbows (couters) are just being introduced. I haven't really looked for the earliest plates on the feet, but cap-a-pie plate is not seen in 1275.

[PartsAndTechnical]

You need to narrow your focus a bit.

Plate armour (cap-a-pied) makes its first serious emergence about 1275 with early coats of plates, greaves and shoulder protection...

1275 is a bit early, considering that plate for the elbows (couters) are just being introduced. I haven't really looked for the earliest plates on the feet, but cap-a-pie plate is not seen in 1275.

Well, not necessarily. Recall that early COPS and greaves appear in the mid to late 13th century. Strapping was certainly a possibility but we also see lacing points (or some form of leather ties) being used to tie on early plate. Note his greaves. They are tied on. I realize this doesnt implicitly answer the original question of pointing through mail, but it does suggest that early armour may have relied as much on tying thong straps as it did with straps and buckles. It is also just as likely early shoulder protection laced to mail, particularly given that it was fairly small and light.

[Mac]

I don't believe we know. Is there direct proof that anything was pointed to arming clothes before the 15th century?

Someone tell me I'm wrong.

Kunz von Haberkorn, d. 1421, courtesy of Claude Blair and Effigies and Brasses. He has a loose garment between the maille and the arm harness, and no straps, so the arm harness has to be laced to or through the arming clothes.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... haberkorn/

Kunz's upper arm armor is certainly pointed to something. It might be pointed to the loose outer garment, it might be pointed to the mail (which we can not see, but presume he has), or it might be pointed to a doublet under all of that.

Mac

[scott2978]

I have asked this question many times to some knowlegable people when trying to figure out how to point my vambrace and other plate over a hauberk. The esteemed Jeff Wasson told me once that, lacking a coat of plates or some other main chest or neck armor to point it to, it's probable that the points were laced through the mail.

I did just that on my own harness. I cut leather squares and punched holes and sewed them to my linen gambesson, then ran leather arming points through them. Then when donning the harness, when putting the hauberk on, you need an assistant to help you lace the arming points through the mail, or you can try pre-lacing the mail over the gambesson and tying the points so they don't slip out. Trying to do anything like that by yourself while wearing it would be sheer futility.

A pitfall to avoid is that unless your arming points are secured to the gambesson at the correct places, your hauberk will not lay right, since your arming points are anchoring the plate to the gambesson through the mail. Make sure none of your arming points are fixed to the gambesson at places where any weight will be borne, like the tops of your shoulers. The thickness and discomfort of those points seem inconsequential until youv'e had 50+ lb of gear bearing down on it for a few hours. I suggest test fitting with an assistant using a colored marker or something to make marks on the gambesson through the mail so you place them exactly right. Also do yourself a favor and look at as many brasses, paintings and effigies as you can stand to look at. Not only will you develop an eye for historical correctness, but there is a good reason for why they did things the way they did, and putting a lace in
the right place or having a lame overlap just right does make a difference in comfort.

Scott2978

[Sean M]

I don't believe we know. Is there direct proof that anything was pointed to arming clothes before the 15th century?

Someone tell me I'm wrong.

Kunz von Haberkorn, d. 1421, courtesy of Claude Blair and Effigies and Brasses. He has a loose garment between the maille and the arm harness, and no straps, so the arm harness has to be laced to or through the arming clothes.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... haberkorn/

Kunz's upper arm armor is certainly pointed to something. It might be pointed to the loose outer garment, it might be pointed to the mail (which we can not see, but presume he has), or it might be pointed to a doublet under all of that.

Mac

I agree. It is interesting that we often don't see any points on that style of rerebrace, which I am more used to seeing in the late 14th century. I don't recall seeing any modern interpretations of that style, at least not in plate.