Theory & development of Mountain Pattern armour

[Mike Wheatley]

So, I am in the process of making some Song dynasty lamellar (details on another thread).
A lot of the historical designs include portions of the complete suit being implemented in the legendary Mountain Pattern design; quite often the grieves and shoulders / upper arms, both of which have high curvature, but little need to flex.

I've not attempted to include this, in my initial suit, since nobody knows how it was actually done.
However, once I have finished the main suit, I'll need something for my lower legs, so I was hoping to get some advice here.

The existing on-line information suggests scales shaped line a 3-pointed star, with additional 'attachment' tabs on each point, all pointing vertically.
An alternative has no tabs, and a pair of holes drilled in the end of each arm.

The default assumption seems to be to rivet the scales to the backing material, however, I'm a little skeptical about that. My thought is that Mountain Pattern was developed whilst they were using Lamellar, and a long time before the adopted the "Coat of Nails" brigandine, so I think their mindset would have been to use cords to link the scales to their neighbours.
So I suspect that they came up with Mountain Pattern primarily as a way of hiding the exposed cord from being cut by the enemy's blades.
So, I am looking for a design that links the scales by cord, such that the overall structure can benefit from the springiness of the metal.

So, any thoughts on either solutions, or on good materials with which to experiment?

- Mike.

[Dan Howard]

When Dan Slone first wrote his paper (twelve years ago?) I made a few mock-ups using rivets and the shape he proposed.
http://www.armourarchive.org/essays/Shanwenkia.pdf

My first mock up used heavy paper and split pins to see how the scales fitted together. He suggests that the armour might be called "mountain armour" because the scales are shaped like the Chinese character for "mountain". His scale looks a lot like that character except that it isn't flat across the bottom. The mockup worked ok. It flexed in a convex direction but not in a concave direction and it "shock hardened" when hit - the plates locked together and formed a rigid surface.

I'd love to see a variant that uses lacing.

[Ld Thomas Willoughby]

My Shan Wen Kia attempt. These are riveted to canvas with aluminum nails. Dan wanted to try sewing some down but I dont know if he ever got around to trying it.



Dan was in our Shire for a few years and we played with some he had plasma cut. I cut these out with modified chisels after trying different layout patterns.

[Effingham]

My take has always been that it was a sculpted pattern built up on leather or fabric, and the "mountain" referred to the raised sections of the pattern-- none of the scale-built pattern pieces I've seen have exhibited the necessary flexibility the parts of armour made of this pattern would require.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

The patterns I've seen people try (upside down Y or a stylized W) seem incredibly wasteful in raw materials, labor, or both, to create.

[Ld Thomas Willoughby]

If you flip them 180 the pattern interlocks and it doesn't waste as much. That's how I laid mine out in strips and used a sharp chisel to cut them. And I dont think China has ever had a labor problem.

I here's a pic of one where I had misprinted the pattern when I tried to rescale them and had to redo it but you get what I'm talking about.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 1235_n.jpg


I wont bother to argue if it's metal or cloth they're showing in the statues and artwork, I dont know enough to even try. This is just my attempt at what Lu-Shan came up with.

[Todd Feinman]

I think this might be the solution to "Mountain Scale". It has a backing, is made of hexagonal scales, has external lacing or perhaps even metal links that create the pattern. Each scale is raised / embossed, too.
https://historum.com/attachments/img_00 ... -jpg.15217
https://historum.com/attachments/img_00 ... jpg.15222/

[Dan Howard]

This is a good summary explaining all the issues with this armour. We don't even know that it was actually called "mountain pattern" armour.
https://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/ ... n-kia.html

[Todd Feinman]

That's a great site. This pic from there:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cA1kvlCAAjo/ ... frbeq1.jpg
really shows external lacing again; look at the shoulder guards -- this variant appears to be made of square scales with external lacing too.

[Todd Feinman]

Okay I have enough commercial bronze on the way to make a shoulder guard. Should be interesting....

[Galileo]

Mind the 6 year bump by Todd

I thought - cool, something new! Then I saw Eff's post

[Todd Feinman]

Yeah I dug this thread up
I just wanted to get this out and make a reconstruction ASAP so that folks producing the interlocking armour can see it and make up their own minds. If correct it instantly creates many Romulan Halloween costumes, so to save time and treasure for others, too.

[Todd Feinman]

Actually it is possible to link each scale together with a wire in such a way as to have one wire per scale that creates the pattern on the front, essentially lamellar construction!

[Todd Feinman]

I think Japanese kikko armour might be a cognate later form developed from mountain scale:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikko_(Japanese_armour)

[Todd Feinman]

Metal has arrived!

[Todd Feinman]

IMG_0074_kindlephoto-559548796.jpg (19.87 KiB) Viewed 3436 times

Some finished scales

thumbnail_IMG_0165.jpg (94.12 KiB) Viewed 3439 times

[Todd Feinman]

scales done, goat leather backing material below plate of scales.

thumbnail_IMG_0180.jpg (21.22 KiB) Viewed 3344 times

[Todd Feinman]

IMG_0192_kindlephoto-76954902.jpg (41.88 KiB) Viewed 3302 times

IMG_0197.JPG (89.29 KiB) Viewed 3302 times

[Galileo]

I know nothing of this armour, but it looks spiffy.

[Todd Feinman]

Thanks! The construction of Mountain Pattern armour is (was!) one of he biggest remaining mysteries in armour history. People have spent countless hours and many ducats trying to recreate it. I think I have now solved the mystery. All of this:

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp ... h37udM9RyY

Is now wrong.

As is the construction essay here:
http://www.armourarchive.org/essays/

[Russ Mitchell]

Great. What's *right?*

[Todd Feinman]

IMG_0218_kindlephoto-216509126_1.jpg (48.05 KiB) Viewed 3208 times

Great. What's *right?*

I think the hexagonal lamellae with the particular hole pattern is correct.

[Russ Mitchell]

Suggest that it's using flatter straps rather than rings, what about a slot rather than a hole and a flat ribbon of metal, leather, or cloth?

[Todd Feinman]

Suggest that it's using flatter straps rather than rings, what about a slot rather than a hole and a flat ribbon of metal, leather, or cloth?

I think that's certainly possible! I suspect that some of it used flattened rings; the holes in the scales were round, but the exposed
portions of the D-rings were flattened, or, the holes were larger and thicker leather thong eas used to secure them. There is plenty of armour in Tibet and China that has thong going through round holes. the regular rings work very well, and given the level of stylization of mail, etc. in depictions, might even be the norm. I'll post more pics and info in a few hours.

[Todd Feinman]

Progress. Not all of the links are completely closed at back yet, so some of the scales are looser. complex curves can be accomplished by curving each scale along an axis.

IMG_0223.JPG (95.68 KiB) Viewed 3137 times

[Todd Feinman]

Progress. Not all of the links are completely closed at back yet, so some of the scales are looser. complex curves can be accomplished by curving each scale along an axis.

IMG_0223.JPG

Here is a depiction where the laces look more like rings:
https://historum.com/attachments/237327 ... jpg.16806/

[Todd Feinman]

I believe this is Mountain Pattern armour.

IMG_0227_kindlephoto-530445308.jpg (53.43 KiB) Viewed 3058 times

Latigo lace.
Back:

IMG_0229_kindlephoto-530551990.jpg (67.92 KiB) Viewed 3058 times

[Todd Feinman]

You're welcome!

[Russ Mitchell]

Dude, that looks dead right.

[Todd Feinman]

Thanks, Man! I think it's right. Someone needs to make a sample and shoot arrows at it. It might be a fun thing for Mike Loades.

[Signo]

I think they should work pretty well against arrows as each plate overlap the other almost 50% and being all detached energy should spread quite well in the mesh. An arrow could pierce it, but it depend more on geometry and placement of inpact than mere kinetic energy.

[Dan Howard]

Definitely looks a lot better than the one with the metal rings. IMO it is the best interpretation so far proposed. To corroborate it we need to find some extant Chinese hexagonal plates with a similar pattern of holes. The closest I've found so far is this Mongolian piece.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/99/d4/b3 ... 8f9db4.jpg

[Todd Feinman]

Thanks, Dan!
Yes, that Mongolian piece is on the right track. There are also the Japanese kikko plates too.
as you know:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/7881368070841152/

[Todd Feinman]

Looks like the boxfish beat us to it...
https://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/pressrelease/ ... electronic

[Mac]

Thanks, Man! I think it's right. Someone needs to make a sample and shoot arrows at it. It might be a fun thing for Mike Loades.

It will probably do OK against arrows.

What "someone needs to do" is see whether or not this construction is suitable for making armor. Over the years, several people have made up small patches of what they are sure is "mountain pattern", but I don't recall any of them ever trying to make armor out of it.

Your reconstruction has the advantage of being easy to construct and economical of material. That makes it a lot more plausible than most of the others.

You stand at a sort of crossroads where others have stood before. Take the path less trodden, and make some armor.

Mac