The Armour Archive

I have a few questions for making gauntlets

1) is a one piece vambrace and gauntlet practical?
1a) If so how much wrist flexibility do you lose?
2) can i armor the wrist with out losing mobility?

I am going for a heavily protective left gauntlet and a more flexible lighter right gauntlet. any suggestions?

I've just made my first gauntlet. It is a Wisby #3 style with a splinted cuff similar to the other Wisby gauntlets (#3 was not found with a cuff so it is conjecture).

You can see pictures in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=166796

The splinted cuff is not really a vambrace as much as a cuff. But as mine is made that cuff covers 50% of my forearm.

I have not used it for actual fighting but it seems very protective to me, and mobility is fine.



Steve

Steve -SoFC- wrote:I've just made my first gauntlet. It is a Wisby #3 style with a splinted cuff similar to the other Wisby gauntlets (#3 was not found with a cuff so it is conjecture).

You can see pictures in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=166796

The splinted cuff is not really a vambrace as much as a cuff. But as mine is made that cuff covers 50% of my forearm.

I have not used it for actual fighting but it seems very protective to me, and mobility is fine.



Steve

wow that is some NICE work you did. I have no pictures of the franken fist i first made, but it was ugly, though protective. what gauge did you make the cuff splints from?
I have access to some light strong AMS steel, and some 10g mild. The AMS goes from 20g to 16G, I was thinking of using it for a coat of plates, but cani pull off gauntlets with them? the AMS stuff is HARD to cut and bend, has a tendency to eat metal cutting blades and is heat resistant to my torch. id have to have a design with minimal dishing. can that be done?

Thanks, Thorgar. I am following in the steps of Master Brian (Knitebee here on the Archive). This was a prototype for me.

I used 18GA (.035") mild throughout. I suspect that this would work fine for SCA combat and is probably a close approximation to what was used in period. I can't remember the details right now but the work of metallurgist Dr. Alan Williams indicates that a lot of armour was made from steel without sufficient carbon in it to be heat treatable. Of course some of it was heat treatable and was heat treated.

For historical use this would probably be sufficient. Even for SCA use it is probably fine in that most of the plates are small enough and/or dished enough and/or overlapped enough that they will stand up to abuse. However I suspect the long slender plates in the cuff, being non-overlapped and very slightly curved, will deform under impact.

I personally will be wearing these over vambraces so I don't see this as an injury concern, and to fix any deformation you would need only bend the cuff back into shape. I do, however, want to get some 1050 steel and try hardening the plates after forming.

I don't know the details of your AMS steel but assuming it is a carbon steel you will have to anneal it to work it, and then you can quench it to harden it and re-heat to temper it.

The parts are small enough that they can be heated with a torch for quenching. I have an electric lead pot for casting bullets and so I will immerse the hardened plates in molten lead at whatever temperature I need for tempering.

I'm also going to try tinning.

Steve

Thorgar Wulfson wrote:1) is a one piece vambrace and gauntlet practical?

I've never seen a successful gauntlet made of one piece. Usually there's at least one articulation.

1a) If so how much wrist flexibility do you lose?

I've been playing with making later period style wrist articulations, and if you put 3-5 plates covering the wrist, you can get some good flexibility out of that, which would be well good enough for spear or pole work. I've never seen any evidence that wrist articulations were actually this good in period, but it can be done, and still look like extant pieces.

Note that in Steve's Wisby, this is essentially what they did 200 years before the styles I was playing with - multiple little plates on the wrist.

2) can i armor the wrist with out losing mobility?

See response below... it's dicey whether I would call it "armor"....

I am going for a heavily protective left gauntlet and a more flexible lighter right gauntlet. any suggestions?

Gauntlet discrepancies that you see in period are on horseman armor. I'm not sure if I've ever seen it on an armor that wasn't obviously for someone with money who likely wasn't going to leave his horse except to pee.

As such, the clunky left gauntlet was in a hand that was holding reins, and that was probably it.

I'm trying to think of cases where I've seen footmen wear gauntlets at all, and the only thing that springs to mind is Talhoffer, where everyone has identical rights and lefts. So to make a long answer short, footmen in period either didn't wear gaunts or didn't wear different rights and lefts, and they were doing what you'll probably be doing.

Steve -SoFC- wrote:I suspect that this would work fine for SCA combat...Even for SCA use it is probably fine in that most of the plates are small enough and/or dished enough and/or overlapped enough that they will stand up to abuse.

This always gets me nervous. I know that in other parts of the world people aren't trying to knock each other's blocks off like they are in Atlantia and the East. But the thought of wearing something with little floating plates on it makes me nervous.

Back in the day I got to see an x-ray of a friend's thumb taken after he got hit with a sword while wearing a gauntlet with a floating articulation. By floating, I mean that the two overlapping plates were on leathers, not solidly riveted to each other. The picture was not pretty. The floating plate got driven down into his bone, acting like a knife edge. The bone was totally greensticked.

I know there are some people that wear finger gauntlets and they're fine... but I always feel compelled to offer my PSA when it comes up. If it seems like professional armorers all make variations of like 2-3 styles of gauntlet, none of them period looking, then realize there's a reason for that... they've all attempted to engineer something that keeps your fingers intact over looking good, and it seems like there are only 2-3 practical solutions for that.

I don't know the details of your AMS steel but assuming it is a carbon steel you will have to anneal it to work it, and then you can quench it to harden it and re-heat to temper it.

After googling, it looks to me like AMS is a company, not a product. What is the steel you're getting, Thorgar?

If it's heat treatable, then 20g would be fine, supposing the heat treat was done properly.
I would not go lower than 20 - I have for gaunts before, and they're just not resilient enough, even with tons of overlap and riveted articulations and riveted edges. I actually replaced the finger plates on that gaunt with 20 because the 24 I used was simply not good enough.

The nice thing about 20g is that while you're patterning you can bang out pieces out of computer case. It's free and about the same thickness.

schreiber wrote:

Thorgar Wulfson wrote:1) is a one piece vambrace and gauntlet practical?

I've never seen a successful gauntlet made of one piece. Usually there's at least one articulation.

heh yeah should have been more clear, but was talking about gauntlet being articulate attached to the vambrace at the wrist.

1a) If so how much wrist flexibility do you lose?

I've been playing with making later period style wrist articulations, and if you put 3-5 plates covering the wrist, you can get some good flexibility out of that, which would be well good enough for spear or pole work. I've never seen any evidence that wrist articulations were actually this good in period, but it can be done, and still look like extant pieces.

Note that in Steve's Wisby, this is essentially what they did 200 years before the styles I was playing with - multiple little plates on the wrist.

I use a two handed hammer mostly and i dont flex the left wrist a lot. i still use it but its mainly for hard X and Y axis moves, and the braced wrist lets me block/deliver more powerful blows while keeping my hand and wrist intact.

2) can i armor the wrist with out losing mobility?

See response below... it's dicey whether I would call it "armor"....

the original design im working with, it was a weapon as well as a gauntlet. I am just taking the weapon part away.

I am going for a heavily protective left gauntlet and a more flexible lighter right gauntlet. any suggestions?

Gauntlet discrepancies that you see in period are on horseman armor. I'm not sure if I've ever seen it on an armor that wasn't obviously for someone with money who likely wasn't going to leave his horse except to pee.

As such, the clunky left gauntlet was in a hand that was holding reins, and that was probably it.

I'm trying to think of cases where I've seen footmen wear gauntlets at all, and the only thing that springs to mind is Talhoffer, where everyone has identical rights and lefts. So to make a long answer short, footmen in period either didn't wear gaunts or didn't wear different rights and lefts, and they were doing what you'll probably be doing.

Id have to research it again (was all paper back when i did the original, all gone now) with the computer, but im basing the design and some of the fighting style off of a mix of gladiatorial style, and an image of a two handed axe wielder with a heavy left "mitten" and arm. Sadly i saw that image when i was much younger and for the life of me, I don't remember anything but the striking image of that axeman with the odd armor. I cant remember if it was stone or wood carved, or even a wood relief print ^.^.

Steve -SoFC- wrote:I suspect that this would work fine for SCA combat...Even for SCA use it is probably fine in that most of the plates are small enough and/or dished enough and/or overlapped enough that they will stand up to abuse.

This always gets me nervous. I know that in other parts of the world people aren't trying to knock each other's blocks off like they are in Atlantia and the East. But the thought of wearing something with little floating plates on it makes me nervous.

Back in the day I got to see an x-ray of a friend's thumb taken after he got hit with a sword while wearing a gauntlet with a floating articulation. By floating, I mean that the two overlapping plates were on leathers, not solidly riveted to each other. The picture was not pretty. The floating plate got driven down into his bone, acting like a knife edge. The bone was totally greensticked.

I know there are some people that wear finger gauntlets and they're fine... but I always feel compelled to offer my PSA when it comes up. If it seems like professional armorers all make variations of like 2-3 styles of gauntlet, none of them period looking, then realize there's a reason for that... they've all attempted to engineer something that keeps your fingers intact over looking good, and it seems like there are only 2-3 practical solutions for that.

Yeah I've known a couple who have gotten injured from the side of the finger plates cutting into the lower/upper fingers (depending on angle of impact). I've been wanting a mitten/clamshell left hand and debating on a fingered or mitten right hand. if i go with fingers id want to make them 3/4 ring finger pieces like in old bracelets.

I don't know the details of your AMS steel but assuming it is a carbon steel you will have to anneal it to work it, and then you can quench it to harden it and re-heat to temper it.

After googling, it looks to me like AMS is a company, not a product. What is the steel you're getting, Thorgar?

If it's heat treatable, then 20g would be fine, supposing the heat treat was done properly.
I would not go lower than 20 - I have for gaunts before, and they're just not resilient enough, even with tons of overlap and riveted articulations and riveted edges. I actually replaced the finger plates on that gaunt with 20 because the 24 I used was simply not good enough.

The nice thing about 20g is that while you're patterning you can bang out pieces out of computer case. It's free and about the same thickness.

The company logo i found on the corner piece of the sheet wasn't AMS, unless it was a different designator for something lol. the whole thing has lines of AMS 5599E HT something. when i googled steel types AMS was listed as Aerospace material specification. My instructor in Votech has no clue where the metal came from or what it is, why im getting it for free lol.

This always gets me nervous. I know that in other parts of the world people aren't trying to knock each other's blocks off like they are in Atlantia and the East. But the thought of wearing something with little floating plates on it makes me nervous.

Back in the day I got to see an x-ray of a friend's thumb taken after he got hit with a sword while wearing a gauntlet with a floating articulation. By floating, I mean that the two overlapping plates were on leathers, not solidly riveted to each other. The picture was not pretty. The floating plate got driven down into his bone, acting like a knife edge. The bone was totally greensticked.

I know there are some people that wear finger gauntlets and they're fine... but I always feel compelled to offer my PSA when it comes up. If it seems like professional armorers all make variations of like 2-3 styles of gauntlet, none of them period looking, then realize there's a reason for that... they've all attempted to engineer something that keeps your fingers intact over looking good, and it seems like there are only 2-3 practical solutions for that.

I agree with you. I don't think I would use finger gauntlets for SCA combat without using either finger bucklers or baskets.

Steve

Q 1. Not really, and you don't need to: a vambrace and long cuff combination will cover you well (and doubly) and also allow you to rotate your hand at the wrist -- the gaunt cuff will move and the vambrace stay. The gaunt and vamb can be constructed to give the sturdiest of protection and shock absorption regardless of what you get them hit with. It'll look 15th, maybe 16th, century.

I believe what you're trying to think of is a piece of tilting gear called a main de fer, slurred into manifer in some documents -- a shieldlike yet gauntlet-shaped piece of metal solid from knuckles to elbow, no wrist freedom at all, and worn on the tilter's more vulnerable left arm, the fingers working the reins. Not that relevant, I don't think, for foot combat.

We generally think the wrist is armored by the gauntlet's cuff. I would use the 10 gauge only as the knuckle-rider, and form it pretty deeply -- into big knuckly gadlings. Or go lighter in the hand using the 16ga AMS stainless you talk about, the rest of the gaunt more like 18 -- weight control, weight control! Note how Steve says he used thin stainless a lot. With luck you could score some of that around the vocational class, and construct your gaunts from it. Vambraces you may go 16ga, but 18 isn't out of line there either, and if it's fluted and creased some its strength will go up with no increase in weight.

Note how Steve says he used thin stainless a lot.

It's all mild.

Steve

Okay. Thought you'd gone as lightweight as you could and stay really stiff.

Konstantin the Red wrote:Q 1. Not really, and you don't need to: a vambrace and long cuff combination will cover you well (and doubly) and also allow you to rotate your hand at the wrist -- the gaunt cuff will move and the vambrace stay. The gaunt and vamb can be constructed to give the sturdiest of protection and shock absorption regardless of what you get them hit with. It'll look 15th, maybe 16th, century.

I believe what you're trying to think of is a piece of tilting gear called a main de fer, slurred into manifer in some documents -- a shieldlike yet gauntlet-shaped piece of metal solid from knuckles to elbow, no wrist freedom at all, and worn on the tilter's more vulnerable left arm, the fingers working the reins. Not that relevant, I don't think, for foot combat.

We generally think the wrist is armored by the gauntlet's cuff. I would use the 10 gauge only as the knuckle-rider, and form it pretty deeply -- into big knuckly gadlings. Or go lighter in the hand using the 16ga AMS stainless you talk about, the rest of the gaunt more like 18 -- weight control, weight control! Note how Steve says he used thin stainless a lot. With luck you could score some of that around the vocational class, and construct your gaunts from it. Vambraces you may go 16ga, but 18 isn't out of line there either, and if it's fluted and creased some its strength will go up with no increase in weight.

thanks for the advice, sorry for the long response time. recovering from the flu.

Well, get well soon! See if you can cadge some Emergen-C for immune system support and a little bedside entertainment making the effervescent stuff. Flu hurts all over, and the pain gets very tedious. Any distraction is worth it.