Any extant examples of mail like this?

[Mac]

Does anyone here know of any surviving mail like that being worn by the guy in this pic? What is important to my project is that the sleeves are attached to one another to form a sort of garment. I an not concerned about the shape of the sleeves.



Thanks!
Mac

[Ckanite]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=168340

Looks to be some voiders sewn onto an arming coat

[Tom B.]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=168340

Looks to be some voiders sewn onto an arming coat

I think the part that is important to Mac is that in the image the sleeves are attached to each other via the bit of mail just below the neck line.
I am very interested in this as well, I am considering doing this to my mail sleeves after I have finished tailoring them.

[Steve S.]

It does not appear to me to be sewn onto the arming coat.

Notice how the body panels droop towards the ground with gravity and do not follow the seam down the center back of the coat. Notice also how the portion under the left arm does not cling to the body.

This is an interesting picture, Mac. What is the date of it? It looks 15th century to me?

Steve

[Tom B.]

[Kel Rekuta]

Based on this image, I started to cut away parts of my latest haubergeon. Toby Capwell and a few of the other jousters have experimented with it; he commented either on this forum or on MyArmoury, maybe six months ago?

I don't think its any different in pattern than the usual top of an haubergeon. Its not like a movie prop shrug with straps and whatnot.

[Ckanite]

It could be broken as well. He looks as if he's injured and if you notice on his right arm, the mail does cling to the sleeve. The mail around the neck is kinda strange, but he could have had on a different type of BP that we are unaware of, low in the front with no gorget, maybe he wore a great helm, though it would have been out of fashion at what looks to be the time of this picture.

[Ernst]

The image is reversed! look at the backwards "C"s in the date below the image...

One of the My Armoury threads on the mail in question
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

The Vatican Bibliographic Reference for the image:

Tamino ID: 95317
Shelfmark Ott.lat.1417,f.20r
Author Baldini, Nicoletta
Title Giovanni di ser Niccolò de' Castaldi da Fano, attribuito, Agesilao ferito trasportato in una tenda, in Giustino,
Epitoma historicarum Philippicarum Pompei Trogi.
In Piero della Francesca e le corti italiane [catalogo di mostra, Arezzo, Museo Statale d'Arte Medievale e
Moderna, 31 marzo-22 luglio 2007, a cura di Carlo Bertelli, Antonio Paolucci]
Place of publication Mialno :
Publisher Skira,
Date of publication c2007.
Note/Volume p. 219-220 e con ill. (p. 168).

[Sean Powell]

It could be broken as well. He looks as if he's injured and if you notice on his right arm, the mail does cling to the sleeve.

Could be. The maile might also be resting on the shoulder of the man carrying him so it doesn't droop free like the other side.

unfortunately I am not aware of any partial maile vests of this style.

Sean

[Konstantin the Red]

Though at the same time, it's clear to everybody that this would work if anyone built it.

[Mac]

Here are a pair of sleeves that Kel has sent me a link to. They are like the ones in the Italian image except that they use fabric, rather than mail to join the sleeves into a short garment. In a sense, this is even better, since the fabric takes up less "real estate" within the cuirasse. Further, the lower corners of the sleeves are constrained from escaping and flapping about.


Mac

[Ottokar]

Here are a pair of sleeves that Kel has sent me a link to. They are like the ones in the Italian image except that they use fabric, rather than mail to join the sleeves into a short garment. In a sense, this is even better, since the fabric takes up less "real estate" within the cuirasse. Further, the lower corners of the sleeves are constrained from escaping and flapping about.
Mac

And a link to the museums web page. Material portion is linen.
http://www.dhm.de/datenbank/dhm.php?sei ... 0=AK004946

[Ernst]

W5240 at the DHM might be closer to the Vatican miniature.

[Mac]

Thank you Ernst! I was just about to post that one.

It is like more like the thing in the Italian image. I suppose we must be looking at the back of it here, and that it fastens in the front.

This is great! I hope that there are more of these.

Mac

[Mac]

And a link to the museums web page. Material portion is linen.
http://www.dhm.de/datenbank/dhm.php?sei ... 0=AK004946

Thank you for posting that link, Otagiri. There is a lot of good stuff there!

Mac

[Ernst]

This is an interesting picture, Mac. What is the date of it? It looks 15th century to me?

Looks like 1460 (MCCCCLX) on the caption at the base of the (mirror) image, but that could be the date for some portrayed event and the manuscript could post date that.

[Tom B.]

Here are a pair of sleeves that Kel has sent me a link to. They are like the ones in the Italian image except that they use fabric, rather than mail to join the sleeves into a short garment. In a sense, this is even better, since the fabric takes up less "real estate" within the cuirasse. Further, the lower corners of the sleeves are constrained from escaping and flapping about.

Mac

I too really like the look of this one.
If I ever finish tailoring my sleeves I will give this a go.

[Mac]

OK, here is a radical thought.

Here is the familiar image of the man being armed from the Hastings MS. We all "know" that he has voiders of gussets of mail sewn or pointed to his doublet. But does he? Might it not be that he is really wearing a mail and fabric "shrug" over his doublet? If this is the case, brown colored stuff in the pic is part of the mail garment and not the doublet. This would include the mail_less patches over the shoulders/upper arms.


Anyone who has ever tried to make mail gussets fit and stay where they should will see that this is a much easier approach.

Mac

[Mac]

There are images of mail garments on fabric or leather foundations in Charles V's inventario illuminado. Does anyone have any of those images that they can post or link to?

Mac

[Kel Rekuta]

I don't have any images to add but I really like where this thread is going.

[Mac]

I found this....



....here.... http://s84.photobucket.com/user/Bwaze/m ... s.jpg.html

......on Blaze Berlecs' photobucket site. (Thank you Blaze!)

That's four different garments with attached sleeves or gussets. The idea of pointing the mail directly to your doublet is looking less and less attractive.

So...Where does that idea come from, anyway? We all "know" it's true, but why do we think so? I am having trouble thinking of any examples where it is certain that the mail is pointed to the doublet, rather than to it's own garment. Can anyone out there slap me back to my senses?

Mac

[Mac]

This is a detail from a portrait by Moroni. It is the one that Foulkes shows in "the Armourer and His Craft". I have always assumed that this guy had his mail pointed to his doublet, but now I do not think that is so. The mail is pointed to a buff colored garment like the ones in the inventario iluminado (previous post). . We can see from his sleeves that his doublet is black.



(thanks again, Blaze)

Mac

[Ernst]

Mac,
Any idea on the latten-edged items above the mail brayette from the illuminated inventory? Sleeves with collar?

[Steve S.]

Basically it appears that they have made a new kind of hauberk with cloth over major portions of the torso now covered in plate.

Steve

[Mac]

Mac,
Any idea on the latten-edged items above the mail brayette from the illuminated inventory? Sleeves with collar?

Ernst,

I keep looking at those and scratching my head. The artist seems to have depicted a thing that has a closed circle of brass at either end. I don't know if he just lost track of what he was doing, or if these are a sort of short sleeve with no shoulder.

Mac

[Mac]

Basically it appears that they have made a new kind of hauberk with cloth over major portions of the torso now covered in plate.

Steve

You could think of it that way, Steve. It's the newfangled light weight haubergeon with mail where you need it, and fabric where you don't.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Mac,

Those are the exact images I was logging in to post

[Ernst]

Mac,
Any idea on the latten-edged items above the mail brayette from the illuminated inventory? Sleeves with collar?

Ernst,

I keep looking at those and scratching my head. The artist seems to have depicted a thing that has a closed circle of brass at either end. I don't know if he just lost track of what he was doing, or if these are a sort of short sleeve with no shoulder.

Mac

Everything else on the page is in its natural orientation, so it would seem odd that the small, upward-facing tubes (even if mistakenly drawn as closed) are the sleeves and the larger tubes the (mistakenly drawn as closed) body panels. Curiouser and Curiouser.

[Steerpike]

Slightly off the main topic, and pure speculation, but...
Might these "Mail shrugs" be the mysterious "musekins" that Ernst and co.were discussing a while back; a mail defense for the shoulders and upper arms that's not a voider or gusset?
( I know they are also referred to as a "pair", but historically it's "a pair of Brigandines" as well- to say nothing of pairs of trousers; our ancestors used "pair" in some odd ways)

[Ckanite]

Could be. And if you think, it really makes sense. If you have a light, thin foundation that your mail is pointed to as opposed to your arming cote, then you can wash your arming cote without having to worry about the mail, or even send the mail to be repaired while your cote is being washed, OR switch out voiders REAL quick during a match without having to undress and redress. Seems pretty much that same functionality that socks have. You can wash/replace the foundation(arming cote, socks, underwear) without effecting the expensive part (mail & armour, shoes, pants). Why not?

[Ernst]

I don't think there's any mention of musekins so late as the 15th or 16th centuries. In the 14th century, musekins are distinguished from mail sleeves and gussets. My guess is still on mail vambraces, but I don't claim certainty. The art contemporary with the inventory descriptions sometimes show open ended 3/4 mail sleeves with tight-fitting mail vambraces beneath.

EDIT TO ADD:
Here's an interesting line drawing. I suppose it's based on an actual object at the Dresden Rüstkammer. An "Almain collar" of mail?

15th century gorget with sleeves in chain mail. From Dresden Museum

[Mac]

That's pretty cool, Ernst. It would be great to see a pic of that.

Mac

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Just brainstorming; perhaps the latten-edged items above the mail brayette are for the elbow. The orientation is problematic, however, unless perhaps the artist was simply presented with the objects in the illustration that he had been commissioned to illustrate but was given no explanation as to what the objects were.

[Ernst]

I believe the top, narrow pieces are for the neck. While it appears that these are closed tubes, compare them with the ends of the sleeves above, which are clearly not closed on the top of the arm. The idea of suspending the sleeves from a collar is known in the 16th century Almain collar, though I doubt it would be seen in the 15th century like Mac's linked sleeves.

[Len Parker]

Down near bottom, there's a guy putting on a half mail shirt http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php? ... 1095&st=80