I wish there were more info available, especially about item #6
The "extra pieces guarding the shoulders and armpits" look like the sleeves that have been the main topic of our discussion in this thread.
I would like to know what the "shirt under it looks like. Is it a sleeveless vest like item #4 or a short sleeved shirt like items #1 & #2.
It would be nice to know if these were still at the Met and what their provenance was.
Tom B. wrote:I finally figured out that this image is from Stones Glossary.
Looks like all of these items were from the Met.
Note item #6: "Shirt of mail with extra pieces guarding the shoulders and armpits, 16th century."
Unfortunately they don't have them all photographed. Take your pick from the list I compiled in the tailoring thread, though MET 14.25.1541a–c looks like a good candidate. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=163811&p=2487391&hi ... s#p2487391
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
Unfortunately they don't have them all photographed. Take your pick from the list I compiled in the tailoring thread, though MET 14.25.1541a–c looks like a good candidate. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=163811&p=2487391&hi ... s#p2487391
I guess we should help them out by volunteering to take photos of all of the unphotographed mail in the reserve collection.
Last edited by Tom B. on Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
This is a fascinating idea - thank you for all the great insight. When I make my machine made micro mail voiders I think I will not be attaching them directly to my arming doublet, but instead to a lightweight outer layer. I wonder if the points on some of the pics (I am thinking no 3) are to point the legs to? I had planned on making a light weight vest to hold up my legs rather than point them directly to my arming doublet (my current harness uses a belt), I think I like the idea of having a layer over the arming doublet with the voiders - that way my leg suspenders get the benefit of the padding in the shoulders of the arming doublet.
I found these two on Pinterest.
I have collected all of the images in this thread as well as a few more in this board Mail Sleeves
European (German) riveted mail hauberk, 15th century. Half-length shirt with short sleeves and a sewn fabric insert made of coarse linen with neck slot and six buttonholes. In the left upper chest a pentagonal makers mark with remnants of gilding embossed with a five-pointed mace.
I keep adding more examples to my Pinterest Board as i come across them. My Mail Sleeves Board
Here are some of the latest adds (click on the above Pinterest Link for more info & bigger pics):
This one is just another example of separate sleeves that don't seem to be attached to anything.
This seems odd, maybe they are connected in the back and possibly up high under the gorget in the front?
This one may be just more of a short shirt but worth including for completeness.
I think the sleeves, in my post above (burgundy velvet), are actually on display next to these.
They are not in Andrea's photos which seems curious but the museum placards seem a close match and the museum accession numbers would indicate both are from Museo Nazionale del Bargello.
Mac wrote:It's remarkable how the more we look, the more of these we find.
I thought it best to bump this thread to note, the original miniature (Ott.lat.1417,f.20r) and the rest of the manuscript is now online at the BAV. http://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Ott.lat.1417
Folios of note for armor: 20r, 24r, 28v, 39r, and a nice rear view of men's drawers in the groping scene on fo.97v.
Enjoy!
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
I just finished up a long outstanding commission to make a pair of these sleeves with an integral collar.
In the photo below was before adding the linen liner for the collar and the buff leather straps and buckles.
Getting the collar in there just right was a good bit more work than it should have been.
Tom B. wrote:I just finished up a long outstanding commission to make a pair of these sleeves with an integral collar.
In the photo below was before adding the linen liner for the collar and the buff leather straps and buckles.
Getting the collar in there just right was a good bit more work than it should have been.
Here is a good pic of the above mail, a matching skirt/paunce and, a mail curtain for attachment to the bottom of the plate fauld.
Pic is of my client Luke Binks, he made the plate armour himself.
I am happy about how it turned out but, would change a a couple of things if I had the chance. The customer is very happy and that counts for quite a bit especially since he is a highly repected professional armourer himself. Fitting the integral collar in was more tricky than my isual fare especially just going off of measurements. Also the borders made ot a bit more work Usually it is easy to add or subtract a mail to adjust things the borders made that more tricky.
I don't think anyone has posted pics of the sleeves/vest from Linz to this thread yet.
It looks like the stitching that holds the mail on is recent; likewise the laces that hold the vest closed. I presume that the garment and the mail have been together, but I don't know anything about this one.
It's getting more and more tempting to think that this sort of arrangement was more or less normal. It's certainly convenient.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
