Any extant examples of mail like this?

[Mac]

Len,

I am getting an error code (403 Forbidden ) when I try to click through that link.

Thanks!
Mac

[Len Parker]

It worked when I just clicked on it. Well, maybe this will work http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php? ... h_id=36857

[Mac]

Thanks for checking, Len. ...but it's still not working for me.

Are others able to see that link? Is is just my computer?

Mac

[Ernst]

I put Len's latest link in image brackets. Does that work for you Mac? I had no trouble with either link. The Russian site seems to assign this to a 1460 mural dealing with a Malatesta encampment.

[Mac]

Strangely enough, that's still not working for me.

The Malatesta camp scene is a good one, though. I have had a link to that in the past. I wonder where it is....

Mac

[Mac]

So, while looking for the Malatesta manuscript illos., I came across this.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vKWORd_pt8g/U ... smondo.jpg

The image is too big to fit here, but it is well worth looking at. It looks like the same camp-breaking scene we are familiar with, but perhaps from a different manuscript.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Mac,
That is a different version than the T-forum one but it shows the same guy arming.
The guy in question is the one arming in front of the white tent top on the left hand side.
It looks to me that this might be a normal length shirt or at least not the same type of vest like setup we are discussing. He is pulling it on over his head.

[Ernst]

See if this shows up as an attachment...

Malatesta Camp.jpg (95 KiB) Viewed 1313 times

It might be a normal shirt, but there is already a skirt of mail in place.

[Tom B.]

See if this shows up as an attachment...

Malatesta Camp.jpg

It might be a normal shirt, but there is already a skirt of mail in place.

Which would give the classic double layer / double hem of mail visible on lots of Italian art.

[Mac]

See if this shows up as an attachment...

Malatesta Camp.jpg

It might be a normal shirt, but there is already a skirt of mail in place.

Ernst,

Look closely at the distance between the armpit and the lower edge of the mail. It's only a hand's breadth or so; no more than two. I am pretty sure that we are supposed to understand this to be a garment that only goes to the waist.

Mac

[Mac]

See if this shows up as an attachment...

Malatesta Camp.jpg

It might be a normal shirt, but there is already a skirt of mail in place.

Which would give the classic double layer / double hem of mail visible on lots of Italian art.

Tom,

I am pretty sure that the normal thing is for the second layer to be attached to the lower edge of the fauld.

A mail skirt plus a fringe of mail on the fauld gives us the usual two layers.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Tom,

I am pretty sure that the normal thing is for the second layer to be attached to the lower edge of the fauld.

A mail skirt plus a fringe of mail on the fauld gives us the usual two layers.

Mac

That makes more sense.

[Sean Powell]

Tom,

I am pretty sure that the normal thing is for the second layer to be attached to the lower edge of the fauld.

A mail skirt plus a fringe of mail on the fauld gives us the usual two layers.

Mac

Lower edge of the fauld or lower edge of the BP where the rivets for the mounting strip would be hidden? There should be rivets for leather strip that the maile is sewn to or for a folded leather strip with the links laced into slots. Do we have any extant pieces that show a regular spacing of rivets or rivets holes in either location?

Sean

[wcallen]

Suspended from the lower fauld lame.

Look at several of the images here:

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21152

We get a little surviving mail and a lot of faulds with a line of rivets along the bottom edge.

Wade

[Sean Powell]

Suspended from the lower fauld lame.

Look at several of the images here:

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21152

We get a little surviving mail and a lot of faulds with a line of rivets along the bottom edge.

Wade

WOW! Much appreciated. I need to go through those imaages on a better monitor.

Sean

[Len Parker]

Notice on the Malatesta pic the mail on the skirt being attached about a hands width below the the waist. With the shortened shirt there would be about 7" of mail removed.

[Mac]

Len,

Do you mean that you imagine that the result of wearing a "skirt and a shrug" results in a 7" strip of un-mailed area around the waist? I concur. That's a savings in weight of a piece of mail about 7" x 40". More importantly, it makes it easier to close the waist of the cuirasse.

Mac

[Len Parker]

Yes, that's what I meant.

[Arrakis]

This sort of discussion is so unique to this forum. I love it.

[Mac]

I am bringing this back to the top again, and reiterating an earlier question.

Do we have any good reason to believe that mail gussets, sleeves, or voiders were ever sewn or pointed directly to an arming doublet?

We seem to have a lot of evidence for sleeves and gussets that mounted on their own garments. We have evidence of sleeves that are garments in their own right by virtue of being connected together by mail or fabric.

If this sort of thing was really the norm, then we might not get much confirmation from inventories. They could easily just say "item: a pair of sleeves of mail", and we would not know if that meant that they were attached physically to one another.

Likewise, the hundreds of mail sleeves that survive today without any associated textile might just as easily have been originally attached together, or at least supplied with some sort of facings or edgings to make them easier to attach. The textile (or leather) may well have been stripped off when it became tatty, or to allow the mail to be cleaned, and never renewed. It could be quite similar to the situation we see with helmets. No one would suggest that the rarity of extant linings in helmets today is an indication that they were not more or less universally lined. It is just a sad fact of preservation that textiles get torn out and thrown away.

Mac

[Tom B.]

That is a very good question.
The only thing I can think of right off hand is the Hastings Manuscript.

How a man schall be armyd at his ese when he schal fighte on foote

Hastings MS. [f.122b]
Middle English

He schal have noo schirte up on him but a dowbelet of ffustean lynyd with satene cutte full of hoolis. The dowblet muste be strongeli boude there the poyntis muste be sette aboute the greet of the arme. And the b ste before and beyhnde and the gussetis of mayle muste be sowid un to the dowbelet in the bought of the arme. And undir the arme the armynge poyntis muste be made of fyne twyne suche as men make stryngis for crossbowes and they muste be trussid small and poyntid as poyntis. Also they muste be wexid with cordeweneris coode. And than they woll neythirrecche nor breke. Also a payre hosyn of stamyn sengill and a peyre of shorte bulwerkis of thynne blanket to put aboute his kneys for chawfygeof his ligherness. Also a payre of shone of thikke cordwene and they muste be frette with smal whipcorde thre knottis up on a corde and thre coordis muste be faste sowid un to the hele of the shoo and fyne cordis in the mydill of the soole of the same shoo and that there be between the frettis of the heele and the frettis of the myddill of the shoo the space of thre fyngris.
To arme a man

ffirste ye muste sette on Sabatones and tye hem up on the shoo with smale poyntis that wol breke. And then griffus and then quisses and the breche of mayle. And the tonletis. And the brest. And the vambras. And then glovys. And then hange his daggere upon his right side. And then his shorte swerde upon the lyfte side in a rounde rynge all nakid and pylle it oute lightli. And then putte his cote upon hos bak. And then his bascincet pynid up on two greet staplis before the breste with a dowbill behynde up on the bak for the make the bascinet sitte juste. And then his long swerde in his hande. And then his pensill in his hande peyntid of seynt George or oure lady to blesse him with as he gooth towarde the felde and in the felde.

[Mac]

Thank you, Tom!

gussetis of mayle muste be sowid un to the dowbelet in the bought of the arme. And undir the arme

OK. This is something solid. There seems to be little room for any other interpretation. He wants the gussets sewed to the doublet.

Of course, this is (as I understand it) the way the author thinks it best to arm a man for a single combat. We don't know how others think it best to arm under those circumstances, nor do we know how the same author would have him arm for war.

Still, it shows that it was thought by someone to be the "right way", and as such, it was almost certainly done.

Even here, though, we don't know if the mail had any sort of lining or facing to make it easier to handle. In the Moroni painting, the gussets have edgings by which they are pointed. This would make the mail a lot less "squirmy" while one was trying to tie it down.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Right, I think that the Hastings manuscript is advice for judical duels and probably does have differences from the everyday practices of men at arms.

For judical duel equipment a good place to look might be the many fight manuals available online at the Wiktenauer Website.

Many show equipment / arming sequences and/or stripping of the defeated.
For example:
equipment image from one of the Talhoffer manuals

[Konstantin the Red]

Attaching a pair of mail sleeves together in this manner sure looks to help at putting them on without calling for a dedicated cote to bear sewn-on sleeves for each infantryman, thus achieving an appreciable cost savings per unit. Sounds just the thing for equipping the infantry out of the city armory. More gotcha for a guilder.

[Mac]

Right, I think that the Hastings manuscript is advice for judical duels and probably does have differences from the everyday practices of men at arms.

For judical duel equipment a good place to look might be the many fight manuals available online at the Wiktenauer Website.

Many show equipment / arming sequences and/or stripping of the defeated.
For example:
equipment image from one of the Talhoffer manuals

What an excellent resource, Tom!

Here in this manuscript of Talhoffer http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Talhoffer_Fe ... IX.17-3%29 we have a poor defeated fellow who is wearing mail at his armpits and (sadly not enough) around his neck.


The mail is gone from the next image. I suppose that we can infer from this that the mail was not sewn to his doublet.



Now, the missing mail might have been a habergeon like the one that Tom linked to http://wiktenauer.com/images/thumb/c/cc ... 15_37r.jpg ...or it might have been sleeves or voiders and a standard that were essentially garments unto themselves. In either case, it seems unlikely that the artist would have us believe that the mail had been cut from his doublet in between images.

At a minimum, we can conclude that the advise given by the author of the Hastings MS on how to arm for single combat is not universally followed.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Mac,

I too looked at exactly that series of images.
Unfortunately there seems to be some inconsistency
Look at the image showing the killing blow, you can see what appears to be a mail breyette on the defeated guy.


In the next image it does not look like mail

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Well, to be fair, there is also a discrepancy on the helmet between images. One has breaths, the prior does not. I'd chalk that up to the artist.

[Gustovic]

And the guy also still has the left arm harness on, which is usually over the mail. So I guess it's just inconsistency by the artist.

[Mac]

And the guy also still has the left arm harness on, which is usually over the mail. So I guess it's just inconsistency by the artist.

I saw that too, Gusto. It's hard to know exactly what we can and can't make of it. There is no denying that one would expect the vambraces to have been stripped off before they removed his mail, yet that's not what our artist is showing us.

To a large extent we are at the mercy of the artist's idea about what makes for a good picture. The visual impact of the doublet with mail attached is artistically more interesting than the topological problem of removing a mail sleeve without first removing the vambrace.

If I had to guess (and we all do) I would think that an artist would fuss over the visual impact of the image, rather than the exact order of the stripping. If the mail were sewn to the doublet, I think that the artist would have shown it still in place here because it is visually important. So, I still favor the idea that this poor fellow's mail was in the form of a haubergeon or other discrete garment-like components.

Mac

[Tom B.]

another bit of info this time from Galleron's Blog (from Sean Manning's post on 14th century arming garments):

I will admitt that haveing just found this I have not yet puzzled out the meaning.

TRAYTESE OF THE POYNTES OF WORSHIP IN ARMES BY JOHAN HYLL,
ARMORER SERGEANT IN THE KINGE’S ARMORY 1434
Bod. Lib., Ashmole. MS. 856, art. 22, pp. 376—~83

[376] Too my leve Lordes here nowe next folowinge is a Traytese compyled by Johan Hyll Armorier Sergeant in the office of Armory wt, Kinges Henry ye 4th and Henry ye 5th of ye poyntes of Worship in Armes and how he shall be diversely Armed & gouverned under supportacion of faveurof alle ye Needes to coverte adde & amenuse where nede is by the high comandement of the Princes that have powair so for to ordeyne & establishe

The first Honneur in Armes is a Gentilman to fight in his Souverain Lords quarell in a bataille of Treason sworne withinne Listes before his souverain Lorde whether he be Appellant or Defendant ye houneur is his that winneth ye feelde.

As for the appellant thus Armed by his owne witte or by his counsaille wch is assigned to him before Conestabie & Marchall ye wch Counsaille is ordeyned & bounden to teche hym alle maner of fightynge & soteltees of Armes that longeth for a battaile sworne

First hym nedeth to have a paire of hosen of corde wtoute vampeys And the saide hosen kutte at ye knees and lyned wtin wt Lynnen cloth byesse as the hose is A payre of shoen of red Lether thynne laced & fretted underneth wt whippecorde & persed, And above withinne Lyned wt Lynnen cloth three fyngers in brede double & byesse from the too an yncle above ye wriste. And so behinde at ye hele from the Soole halfe a quarter of a yearde uppe this is to fasten wele to his Sabatons And the same Sabatons fastened under ye soole of ye fote in 2 places hym nedeth also a petycote of an overbody of a doublett, his petycote wt oute sleves, ye syses of him 3 quarters aboute wt outen coler, And that other part noo ferther thanne [377] ye waste wt streyte sleves and coler and cutaine oylettes in ye sleves for ye vaunt bras and ye Rerebrase

Armed in this wise First behoveth Sabatouns grevis & cloos quysseux wt voydours of plate or of mayle & a cloos breche of mayle wt 5 bokles of stele ye tisseux of fyne lether. And all ye armyng poyntes after they ben knytte & fastened on hym armed that ye poyntes of him be kutte of

And thanne a paire of cloos gussetts strong sclave not drawes and thatye gussets be thre fingers withinne his plates at both assises And thanne a paire of plattes at xx li lib weight his breste & his plats enarmed to wt wyre or wt poyntes.

A pair of Rerebraces shitten withinne the plates before wt twi forlockes and behinde wt thre forlocks. A paire of vaunt bras cloos wt voydours of mayle & fretted. A pair of gloves of avantage wche may be devised. A basnet of avauntage for ye listes whiche is not goode for noon other battailles but man for man save that necessitie hath noo lawe, the basnet locked baver & vysour locked or charnelled also to ye brest & behynde wt two forlockes. And this Gentilman appellent aforesaide whanne he is thus armed & redy to come to ye felde do on hym a cote of armes of sengle tarten ye beter for avauntage in fighting. And his leg harneys covered alle wt reed taritryn the wche ben called tunictes for he coverynge of his leg harneys is doen because his adversarie shal not lightly espye his blode. And therefore also hen his hosen reed for in alle other colours blode wol lightly be seyne, for by the oolde tyme in such a bataile there shulde noo thing have be seyn here save his basnett & his gloves. And thanne tye on hym a payre of besagewes. Also it fitteth the [378] foresaide counsaille to goo to ye kyng the daye before ye bataille & aske his logging nigh ye listes. Also ye foresaide Counsaille must ordeyne hym the masses ye first masse of ye Trinitie ye seconde of ye Holy Goste & ye thirde of owre Ladye or elles of what other sainte or saintes that he hath devocion unto

[Tom B.]

I guess that it is referring to
" cloos quysseux wt voydours of plate or of mayle" = voiders for the cuisses?
"cloos breche of mayle" = mail breyette?
"cloos gussetts strong sclave not drawes and thatye gussets be thre fingers withinne his plates" = a pair of gussets that will underlap the plates by a measure of 3 fingers?
"vaunt bras cloos wt voydours of mayle" = vambraces with voiders of mail?

Does "cloos" mean closed? Meaning fulled enclosed?

So it sounds to me like he has
1. fully enclosed cuisses with mail voiders for the back of the knee?
2. Mail breyette
3. Short mail sleeves?
4. Mail voiders inside of the elbow?

[Tom B.]

Here is a link to a high resolution image of Nuno Goncalves' St. Vincent Panels

Panels #4 & #5 show several guys with bits of mail.

Several of the guys have their outer layers open at the top center of their chest.
On some bits of their shirts are exposed, may indicate separate sleeves? - in 4th panel just to St Vincent's right, kneeling wearing blue brigandine & guy kneeling in from on 5th panel
On at least one there is a solid mail pane present, may indicate a shirt? - 5th panel guy in center with metal cap on
One guy seems to have a lined front opening shirt and a mail fauld? - in 4th panel just to St Vincent's right with tall red hat

[Ernst]

3. Short mail sleeves?

No.

A pair of Rerebraces shitten withinne the plates before wt twi forlockes and behinde wt thre forlocks.

So, plate rerebraces shut with two pinned hinges in the front, and three at the rear.

[John S.]

In Middle English does "sewn" have to mean mean "sewn?" Or could it also mean laced or pointed?

If so, could the "How a Man Shall be Armed" quote be interpreted as the author reminding folks (paraphrasing a lot here) that for a juidical duel you should not take shortcuts while getting armed and should have your attendants point your "mail shrug" to your arming cote for safety?

[John S.]

As a parallel, think about a quote (different thread) that talked about how someone had his hauberk stitched to his chausses so that he couldn't get stabbed in the groin. That step was probably skipped by other folks.