Any extant examples of mail like this?

[Tom B.]

3. Short mail sleeves?

No.

A pair of Rerebraces shitten withinne the plates before wt twi forlockes and behinde wt thre forlocks.

So, plate rerebraces shut with two pinned hinges in the front, and three at the rear.

I understood him to have rerebraces I am talking about the mail under them.
Specifically this part

cloos gussetts strong sclave not drawes and thatye gussets be thre fingers withinne his plates

What I am asking is what does "cloos gussets" mean?
Closed gussets?

Elsewhere he seems to use "cloos" to mean closed / fully enclosed.
I was just proposing that maybe a closed gusset was actually a sleeve.
I gussed a short sleeve because it also mentions gussets for the vambrace, presumably for the elbow.

[Ernst]

I see your confusion. I don't know if I can define the difference between a closed gusset and a sleeve, other than, "I know it when I see it." By etymology, gusset is derived from the shell of a nut, something which opens in halves, whereas a sleeve is slipped on. Perhaps an enclosed gusset is like the Moroni example where the top edge is laced closed rather than being a solid piece of mail, which would make it a sleeve.

L-R, Top to Bottom, I would categorize these as such:
1. Short mail sleeves
3. Open gussets
4. Short mail sleeves
5. Long mail sleeves
6. Mail "almain collar"(?)
8. This is the tough one. By proposed definition this is a sleeve, but I want to call it a gusset.

[Mac]

Here is a snippet from the Nuno_Gonçalves pic that Tom linked to.

There are a couple of things that catch my attention.

The first is that the mail garment that the fellow in the upper right is wearing is edged in black. This might be a lining, or it might just be a narrow strip of fabric or leather sewn to the edges. In my experience, a little thing like that goes a long way toward making mail behave its self and not gap when you try to buckle it closed.

The second is the mail on the shoulder of the guy in the foreground. There are a couple of possible explanations for the red strip down the middle......
---It might be his doublet showing through a gap in the mail. If that is the case, the edges of the gap must be sewn to the doublet, or the mail would not stay in place like that.
---It might be a patch of red cloth that happens to match his doublet. This would be sewn into the gap in the mail to help it maintain its shape.

In either case, it looks like there is an intentional gap in the mail over the top of the shoulder, which would be covered by the pauldron.






Mac

[Tom B.]

I see your confusion. I don't know if I can define the difference between a closed gusset and a sleeve, other than, "I know it when I see it." By etymology, gusset is derived from the shell of a nut, something which opens in halves, whereas a sleeve is slipped on. Perhaps an enclosed gusset is like the Moroni example where the top edge is laced closed rather than being a solid piece of mail, which would make it a sleeve.

L-R, Top to Bottom, I would categorize these as such:
1. Short mail sleeves
3. Open gussets
4. Short mail sleeves
5. Long mail sleeves
6. Mail "almain collar"(?)
8. This is the tough one. By proposed definition this is a sleeve, but I want to call it a gusset.

I am confused buy your numbering.
To my eye, in this picture, there are 3 rows of three items.
8 of the 9 are of mail.
Going L-R across the top row
1. Short mail sleeves unmonuted
2. "Bishops mantel" mail
3. mail "open" gussets mounted
second row
4. Short mail sleeves mounted
5. Long mail sleeves mounted
6. "Closed" mail elbow gussets unmounted?
third row
7. non-mail
8. "closed" mail gusset mounted
9. mail breeches


Lets move our discussion of the text I posted "Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434" to the new thread Mac made for it here.
Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

[Mac]

third row
7. non-mail

I think we are supposed to see that one as a mail lined garment. The artist has painted the inside with the same color he used for mail

Mac

[Tom B.]

What about #3 top right

Are those fully enclosed mail sleeves attached to a sleeveless garment?

[Ernst]

third row
7. non-mail

I think we are supposed to see that one as a mail lined garment. The artist has painted the inside with the same color he used for mail

Mac

Also the same shade of gray used at the necklines of the arming doublets with mail sleeves, though.

[Ernst]

What about #3 top right

Are those fully enclosed mail sleeves attached to a sleeveless garment?

I don't see how they could be fully enclosed and set so low on the armscye, which still has an open area at the shoulder.

[Mac]

#3 is a bit difficult to be sure about, isn't it? I see it as a garment with gussets that are open over the shoulders, but it looks like the opening comes to a close at the end of the upper arm. This makes it similar to the guy in the Nuno Gonçalves painting, but with a larger opening and less of a shoulder shape on top.

If the opening extended all the way to the edge, there would have to be something to stabilize it. I think it would work OK as depicted because the upper edges of the mail are on a straight grain. Of course, there is only one way to find out.

Mac

[Mac]

third row
7. non-mail

I think we are supposed to see that one as a mail lined garment. The artist has painted the inside with the same color he used for mail

Mac

Also the same shade of gray used at the necklines of the arming doublets with mail sleeves, though.

Yea... You're right. Damn! I thought I was on to something.....

Mac

[Tom B.]

third row
7. non-mail

I think we are supposed to see that one as a mail lined garment. The artist has painted the inside with the same color he used for mail

Mac

Also the same shade of gray used at the necklines of the arming doublets with mail sleeves, though.

That had me confused too, but if there is no mail then why are the relevant on this page?

[Tom B.]

Better image from Will McLean's Blog

[Tom B.]

Some discussion parallel to ours at a Landsknecht Forum

Also here is a zoomable version of Moroni's Knight

[Mac]

The aforesaid better image.



It certainly looks like the artist has treated the insides of the garments exactly the same. There is some regular texture, but it seems to be either the surface of the paper, or an artifact of the reproduction. In any case, it does not look as thought we are meant to interpret it as mail.

So, why are those Landesknect shorts here among the mail?

Mac

[Mac]

Some discussion parallel to ours at a Landsknecht Forum

Also here is a zoomable version of Moroni's Knight

Nice! Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to grab up the image to crop up a detail.

It looks to me like he is wearing a sleeveless vest-like garment with the mail pointed to it. The medial edges of the mail are edged in black "tissue" of some sort and the points pass through these edges. The mail is open down the top of the shoulder and held together by black points. The slightly scalloped or undulating nature of the opening between the points suggests that the opening in the mail is not closed off by a fabric panel. The opening might be edged in black tissue, like the medial edges of the mail, but then again, perhaps not. I am guessing that like the other brass trimmed edges, it is not edged in black stuff, and that we are seeing the man's black (silk?) doublet showing through down the middle of the shoulder and arm.

Mac

[Sean Powell]

Some discussion parallel to ours at a Landsknecht Forum

Also here is a zoomable version of Moroni's Knight

Nice! Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to grab up the image to crop up a detail.

It looks to me like he is wearing a sleeveless vest-like garment with the mail pointed to it. The medial edges of the mail are edged in black "tissue" of some sort and the points pass through these edges. The mail is open down the top of the shoulder and held together by black points. The slightly scalloped or undulating nature of the opening between the points suggests that the opening in the mail is not closed off by a fabric panel. The opening might be edged in black tissue, like the medial edges of the mail, but then again, perhaps not. I am guessing that like the other brass trimmed edges, it is not edged in black stuff, and that we are seeing the man's black (silk?) doublet showing through down the middle of the shoulder and arm.

Mac

Yes but now we've gone all the way back to the original concept of maile sleeves pointed to an arming coat or foundation garment of some kind. It's not an all-maile shrug or a maile and cloth shrug. It's presumable that his base layer is a white shirt with embelished cuffs and neck but we don't know if the brown is a vest or if it's attached to 2 black sleeves. Either way there are 1 to 2 layers of fabric underneath the maile.

We've always known pointing maile to a foundation garment works... Or have I missed something about where this conversation ended up?

Sean

[Sean Powell]

Some discussion parallel to ours at a Landsknecht Forum

Also here is a zoomable version of Moroni's Knight

Nice! Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to grab up the image to crop up a detail.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t239 ... fac804.png

It looks to me like he is wearing a sleeveless vest-like garment with the mail pointed to it. The medial edges of the mail are edged in black "tissue" of some sort and the points pass through these edges. The mail is open down the top of the shoulder and held together by black points. The slightly scalloped or undulating nature of the opening between the points suggests that the opening in the mail is not closed off by a fabric panel. The opening might be edged in black tissue, like the medial edges of the mail, but then again, perhaps not. I am guessing that like the other brass trimmed edges, it is not edged in black stuff, and that we are seeing the man's black (silk?) doublet showing through down the middle of the shoulder and arm.

Mac

Yes but now we've gone all the way back to the original concept of maile sleeves pointed to an arming coat or foundation garment of some kind. It's not an all-maile shrug or a maile and cloth shrug. It's presumable that his base layer is a white shirt with embelished cuffs and neck but we don't know if the brown is a vest or if it's attached to 2 black sleeves. Either way there are 1 to 2 layers of fabric attached and underneath the maile (plus the shirt).

We've always known pointing maile to a foundation garment works... Or have I missed something about where this conversation ended up?

Sean

[Mac]

Sean,

It is certainly true that we are going around and around, but I don't think that we are ending up in exactly the same place. We are seeing more ways, and more convenient ways to wear mail.

In the case of the Moroni portrait, for example, I am pretty sure we have a dedicated garment to which the mail is pointed, and that garment is worn over the doublet. This is really a lot better than having mail sewn directly on to a garment that is going to need frequent laundering.

Mac

[Jason Grimes]

So, why are those Landesknect shorts here among the mail?

Mac

Maybe number 7 and number 9 go together?

[Tom B.]

A bit of a departure but related:

Also from the Inventario Illuminado.




I understand that Jose Godoy, curator of Arms and Armour at the Musee d'art et d'histoire in Geneva, is working on publishing a detailed study of the Inventario Illuminado.

[Tom B.]

A portrait of Sir Richard Bingham, from 1564 now in the National Portrait Gallery, London.
(click on image below to see higher resolution version)

[Tom B.]

OK, here is a radical thought.

Here is the familiar image of the man being armed from the Hastings MS. We all "know" that he has voiders of gussets of mail sewn or pointed to his doublet. But does he? Might it not be that he is really wearing a mail and fabric "shrug" over his doublet? If this is the case, brown colored stuff in the pic is part of the mail garment and not the doublet. This would include the mail_less patches over the shoulders/upper arms.


Anyone who has ever tried to make mail gussets fit and stay where they should will see that this is a much easier approach.

Mac

Slightly better image

[Mac]

What do you thing we are seeing, Tom?

Mac

[Konstantin the Red]

Mac, what he's wanting us to see is the concept that Mr. 1416, being Armyd at His Ese is wearing a jacketlike garment, to which is sewn the voiders be they connected together in back or not, which jacket is worn over the fighting dowbelet. (The one "cutte full of hoolis.") He reckons this jacket is tan in color, and that it is mostly though not completely hidden by the mail, or even that it is a mere cloth edging and fill-in, with the mail sleeves being, well, its sleeves. This detail will call for more thought or testimony as to experience.

The entire assemblage being to make separate mailpatches go on all at once, like a fifteenth-century mailshirt such as was still being produced for infantry/municipal arsenal use a generation later. Lighter weight, though.

We've interpreted the mail fauld being secured about his hips as a separate piece of mail entirely, possibly not connected, or not permanently connected, to this postulated jacket piece. Should we have cause to revise this interpretation?

[Tom B.]

What do you think we are seeing, Tom?

Mac

Well, to be honest I may have posted a bit in haste from my phone.

About the Richard Bingham portrait.
It does serve as a good example of how sleeves were attached to a full doublet mid 16th century.
It also is probably worth noting that the reddish part of the doublet matches up really well with the cloth portion of the extant sleeves in Berlin.


On the second pic I posted, from the Hastings MS, the higher resolution image does not clear anything up for me.
I think based on appearance only I could go either way, a shrug like we have been discussing or a full doublet with attached mail.
Either way it looks like the mail fauld is belted on separately.

Trying to place some arming logic, gained from modern practical experience, to the image might be dangerous but, here goes.

Lets start by going down the path with our old assumption he is wearing an full length arming doublet with attached mail gussets.
His leg harness would probably be pointed to the doublet.
This requires that at least the lower part of the doublet be tightly fitted.
Why would you point the leg harness before you completely pointed / laced up your doublet?
Could the hidden portion be laced tightly and the top still open?

[Arrakis]

What do you think we are seeing, Tom?
Trying to place some arming logic, gained from modern practical experience, to the image might be dangerous but, here goes.

Lets start by going down the path with our old assumption he is wearing an full length arming doublet with attached mail gussets.
His leg harness would probably be pointed to the doublet.
This requires that at least the lower part of the doublet be tightly fitted.
Why would you point the leg harness before you completely pointed / laced up your doublet?
Could the hidden portion be laced tightly and the top still open?

I don't see why not; my leg harness solution is essentially the bottom half of a doublet worn around the hips below the bellybutton. Mine's secured with velcro, mind, but would work as well laced. However, if using a full arming cote, I wonder why you wouldn't want to distribute some of the weight of the legs up to the shoulders; in that case, you'd likely want the whole front laced tight before you pointed the legs.

That does, to me, suggest that there's an arming cote, under the open garment with the maille, to which the fellow's legs are attached.

Noting that the forearms seem to be painted in the same color as the jacket to which the maille on the upper body is attached and that the maille seems to cover the inside of the elbow lower than the outside, I'd reckon that the forearm sleeves we're seeing are part of the maille-bearing upper body garment (MBUBG? Awkward acronym). That makes me wonder if any underlying arming garment, supporting the legs, would not, perhaps, have been sleeveless. It's certainly something modern recreation has found useful at times, but for which I know of no specific supporting material or literary evidence.

Also, the assistant in the image seems to be securing a thin cloth or leather belt or strap around the waist, I would say to hold the maille skirt up. In fact, I'd reckon the fellow in armor is holding the mail skirt in place with his right hand while the assistant snugs it up on his side and ties/buckles it off. So, I'd hazard that the skirt is definitely separate. I wonder if we're meant to see that the MBUBG extends below the level of the waist where the skirt is being affixed, or that it abuts the top edge of the skirt.

[Tom B.]

That makes me wonder if any underlying arming garment, supporting the legs, would not, perhaps, have been sleeveless. It's certainly something modern recreation has found useful at times, but for which I know of no specific supporting material or literary evidence.

Please take a look at our discussion of just such a text in a thread spun off of this one.
Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

[Arrakis]

That makes me wonder if any underlying arming garment, supporting the legs, would not, perhaps, have been sleeveless. It's certainly something modern recreation has found useful at times, but for which I know of no specific supporting material or literary evidence.

Please take a look at our discussion of just such a text in a thread spun off of this one.
Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Huh! I hadn't seen that. I've seen people discussing a lack of evidence in favor of sleeveless arming garments for years and hadn't found any myself in art; this is very cool. In context of that document, it sure seems like the maille-garment in that Hastings MS image is intended to be only waist-length and a (potentially sleeveless) undergarment for the legs sounds more plausible.

Thanks!

[Konstantin the Red]

. . . I'd reckon that the forearm sleeves we're seeing are part of the maille-bearing upper body garment (MBUBG? Awkward acronym).

Perhaps just call it an "upper garment" and get something handier for the acronym like MBUG?

[Len Parker]

Looks like the maille is attached to the vest. http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php? ... image=1025

[Tom B.]

Looks like the maille is attached to the vest. http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php? ... image=1025

Doublet Eugene of Savoy from late 17th to early 18th century.
Located at the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum (military history museum located in Vienna, Austria)

[Mark Griffin]

Thats very nice indeed but is it designed for wearing under armour? That's a civilian waistcoat/westcotte pattern so I'd put it more under the garments of defence or a privvy coat than something for wear under bits of harness. I'd love one for fencing.....

[Tom B.]

I am starting to work on my reproduction, it will be based off of the sleeve pattern that Mac developed from Wade's extant sleeves.
I am aiming for something like the one at the DHM.



I am using 6mm half riveted and half solid rings for the construction.
Once I have something worth showing I will create my own thread.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Looking forward to seeing it!

[Vermillion]

Tom, make sure you bring it to the get together !