Laminated canvas for hidden/covered armor experiment

[Myron]

I have been messing around with some laminated canvas armor for SCA heavy, and had some people interested in how it's coming along. I haven't seen anything like this done before, so far it seems like a decent alternative to hardened leather or plastic. It can be molded to your body, is very light, cheap, and easy to do for someone without access to many armoring tools. I started out making a set of lightweight legs. I haven't used them to fight in yet, but I have hit myself repeatedly with things and they seem to protect fairly well. There are probably better ways to do this, but this started as a way to use up a ton of scrap painted canvas and a need for some lightweight hidden legs. I used painted canvas drop cloth that was from old play back drops. It doesn't fray when cut, and I think it adds some stiffness. If you don't use painted canvas, I would at least put glue around the traced out pieces before cutting. The glue was Tite Bond II, it seems mostly waterproof when dry. I then coated it in linseed oil. It tool a LONG time to dry (I think about a month), but seems to have added some strength. Here's what I did:

1. Make patterns for pieces and trace out on canvas. I used 8 layers for the cuisses and 6 for the greaves. 6 is probably too light for anywhere you will be hit repeatedly, 8 seems good.

2. Brush glue on both sides of the pieces that will be glued together. I used a lot. it took about 1/3 of a gallon for the whole project. Stack them together on top of a piece of foil.

3. Once all the pieces are stacked together, press them down with your hands, then wrap the part around your leg. Tape it around your leg in a few spots, you are basically making a cast. The foil should keep it from sticking to your clothes.

4. Leave it on for about 2 hours, it should retain the shape when you take it off. Place the pieces over something that won't press on the shape or flatten it out. I used the back of a chair, or some balled up scrap pieces of fabric.

5. Let it dry for about a week to fully harden. The glue on the inside will dry really slow. I coated mine in linseed oil for some extra water proofing, but you could probably use some sort of poly sealer to do the same thing. That's about it. It can be punched with a leather punch for strapping.

I plan on covering these with some wool to match a set of hose when I get some, and gluing some felt on the inside for comfort. I banged out the aluminum knee cops quick, they aren't perfect but will work. They weigh next to nothing, and almost stay on without strapping. I am going to try to attach them to the thigh with 2 points, one strap on the cuisses, and 2 on the greaves. The pictures aren't great, and the random colors on them are from the painting that was on the drop cloth.

I have made some kidney protection and started a set of arms like this as well, if anyone wants more details let me know.

[Konstantin the Red]

You might start with just two layers laminated that way, do the shaping, and let these dry all the easier for being a thin layer. Then go over it with more of the canvas one layer at a time, just laid over the cast-to-you layers, until you arrive at 8 layers or a couple more on particularly vulnerable points that don't move around much, such as the points of the shoulders or other strategic spots. You may be able to speed the business either playing a fan on it or using a heat gun or hair blowdrier.

This has possibilities in low-pro limb armor!

And there are other formfitted casting methods that are usable too, like the longhandle underwear-w/ductape method. Stuff that form firmly and you can cast stuff on it all day without having to wear a piece for hours waiting for it to dry!

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Very much like a linothorax, stiffened cloth body armor.

Nicely done.

[RandallMoffett]

Diglach,

Lets not start that again! You will open the gates of hell saying stuff like that around here.

RPM

[Konstantin the Red]

Consensus was, "Ya know, I don't think the linothorax ever was 100% linen. Mighta been hardened leather instead."

[Myron]

Not the linothorax! I posted something about this before in a thread and it got deraild by everyone talking about It. I'll show some pics of arm and back parts when I get a chance. I bet there are easier and quicker way, good ideas on reducing the dry times. the dry time wasn't much of an issue for me. You could probably take off the parts after an hour if you are careful and support them in the shape. Taping it to you and moving around some lets it form to your body a bit better I think.

[Dan Howard]

Consensus was, "Ya know, I don't think the linothorax ever was 100% linen. Mighta been hardened leather instead."

Not quite.
1) layered textile armour was never, in the entire history of textile armour, made using glue. It was always quilted.
2) what we know as the Greek "linothorax" was more likely made from leather than linen.

[Ckanite]

Consensus was, "Ya know, I don't think the linothorax ever was 100% linen. Mighta been hardened leather instead."

Not quite.
1) layered textile armour was never made using glue - ever, in the entire history of warfare. It was always quilted.
2) what we know as the Greek "linothorax" was more likely made from leather than linen.

I would be very careful using the words never and always. You have seen every single piece ever made, not found, made AND watched them make it? I'll buy that when I have proof that every edge on every armor was rolled.

[Dan Howard]

My claim can be easily discredited by producing a single example of glued layered linen armour - either a physical example or a mention of it in a text. People have been looking for over a decade and haven't found one. We have many many examples from all over the world over a three thousand year period of quilted textile armour.

[schreiber]

Not the linothorax! I posted something about this before in a thread and it got deraild by everyone talking about It.

Well, *I* want to talk about your armor.
Have you worn it with anything underneath yet? What's the wool like to fight in?
I imagine stiff canvas would not be very comfortable on skin, particularly where it's going to rub.
Have you considered smoothing out the inside somehow?

[RoundTop]

Remember the debate about hardened leather armour? It wasn't until this year that an artifact was found that confirmed it. It fell in a latrine in the mid 13th century and was preserved by the urine and other stuff. but it was definitely hardened leather with metal splints. We had only seen it in effigy form before.

[Dan Howard]

We have other examples of cuir bouilli armour, not just the one found this year. We also have mentions of it in various texts. The earliest European text is the Chanson d'Antioche.

[schreiber]

So, regarding the canvas laminate, what if you got really thin polystyrene (like 1/16") and molded that to your leg, and then used that as a master? That way you don't have to wear it for two hours.
The only issue there would be you have to wear a towel or other heat sink when you mold plastic, and between the towel and the plastic it'll be really thick...

[Rodney]

This seems to be a great way to go for inexpensive, custom fit hidden legs.

Please let us know how they hold up to repeated blows!

[RandallMoffett]

RT,

WE do have other evidence of leather armour and the one that was just found is not even for sure hardened but was for sure splinted.

I am interested in this as low profile armour as well but the danger is people trying to make it historic when it likely is not. And Dan is pretty much dead on from what I can tell. We have 0 evidence of textile armour with glue and lots of evidence of it being layered defenses.

[Myron]

This is not supposed to be historical! Purely sports armor just like how we use plastic, aluminum, and other materials. The Greeks did not have tite bond wood glue. It does have the advantage of being very low profile, and cheap. This makes it easier to cover. It will look better than wearing a cut up bucket. It really is not that uncomfortable to wear with no padding, the inside is fairly smooth from the layer of paint. I am going to try to use just 1 layer of felt glued to the inside. If i get some bruising, i might add a thin layEr of 1/8" foam . I haven't tested it yet in actual fighting, hopefully I can soon and I will write about he results. Haven't made it out to practice in forever. The wool cover was an idea to make it match hose worn underneath with the 5 ft rule. Hose probably too tight fitting to wear it under, by for other periods would work well and avoit the poofy pants look.

Apologize for bad grammar, stuck using only phone till storm is over.

[Konstantin the Red]

Be careful out there. Black ice'll put you right in the ditch.

[John S.]

Myron,

If you had to buy the canvas, how much would this project have been per square foot in comparison to hardened leather?

(I'm asking this question to assess viability, not to pass judgement.)

John

[Mac]

I am struck by how Myron has achieved a rather nice shape on the cuisses.

The overall shape is better than 9 out of 10 works in more traditional materials. I don't know it this is about the technique or about Myron. Either way, it's sort of refreshing.

Mac

[Rodney]

I am struck by how Myron has achieved a rather nice shape on the cuisses.

The overall shape is better than 9 out of 10 works in more traditional materials. I don't know it this is about the technique or about Myron. Either way, it's sort of refreshing.

Mac

True! If this experiment holds up to repeated blows from rattan (say 1 to 2 years worth), I’m VERY excited.

[Dan Howard]

Kinda like papier mâché, but using using cloth instead of paper.

[dominic]

Myron; thank you for posting this! I am looking forward to doing some experimentation with different glue options and stress tests to see how well it holds up. As for shaping; I am pondering a good way to shape it after molding it to the body. So after making a cuisse using your method, how to then fit it to the top lame of an articulated knee. Maybe I could clamp it in a simple, two-piece mold while it is stiff but still somewhat malleable. Great stuff!!

Please, please, PLEASE for the love of all that is good and holy, can we not get side-tracked with the Linothorax discussion?

[Myron]

Thanks for the intrest, I will attempt to rig these up enough to fight in tomorrow and let you all know how that works. I was called up for the storm, so I wasn't able to reply much. Overall cost would be a canvas drop cloth from lowes or another big box:$10, a gallon of tite bond:$15, and some leftover house paint. This would be enough for a few projects. Might find a better price a a fabric store, but lowes was convenient. There are two weights of the drop cloths, get the heavier. I think it was 10 oz. I have been using them for all sorts of stuff like shield covers and edge reinforcement to the shell of a padded jack. 8 x 10 would probably be plenty for a set of legs. Dominic, as far as using articulated knees, I'm sure you could just rivet the top lame to the canvas just like as if it is leather. I went with some floating aluminum ones, and just had to adjust the ties for full motion. They move really well, I can run, kick, and jump in them easily. I imagine you could make a whole suit out of this minus the joints and helm. I patterned out some ideas for one, might try it sometime.

There are some great ideas you guys are bringing up for improving this, I went with the simplest process of just taping the pieces to me and watched tv or worked on the computer for 2 hours while it dried. I will post pics today of other parts I have made.

[RandallMoffett]

So how hard do these get? Have you had time to see if hey maintain their rigidity? I am wondering if you cannot get these to be a color that is very discreet for hidden armour as well and plastic often stands out. Might be good for all those early period people.

RPM

[Myron]

You could really do whatever you wanted cosmetically, my work so far is unfinished. The color is just the scrap canvas that was cut up. It was painted for a play backdrop so it is all crazy colors. My intent is to cover it with fabric, but you could just paint it, its canvas after all.

8 Layers seems very rigid when it is coated in Linseed oil. I was trying to find a balance between protection and mobility. I have hit my thigh repeatedly with a rattan sword as hard as I can and barely felt it. This will need some extensive testing to see how long it holds up, but right now it looks promising. It is semi-flexible, but retains it's shape. I don't think de-lamination will be an issue, most of the tests done during Linothorax experiments failed because the glue de-laminated when wet. Tite bond seems waterproof. The pants that I wore when I made these were covered in it and the glue has not even started to come off after repeated washings (that's why I now use foil under it when forming).

Another idea could be to add a layer of fiberglass over it, but that will add cost and more time, and may be unnecessary. Here are some pictures of an arm set, and a piece to cover my kidneys. I only wear a breastplate, so I am going to sew this to the inside of my padded jack for my kidney/lower back protection. The arms were more of an experiment to see how they would work; I don't really plan on using them anytime soon. They would work well for early period, or I might make a set of jack sleeves that have these on the inside and a cop on the outside with jack chains.

[Myron]

The rest of the pictures

[Malek]

This is interesting for sure.
Years ago I made lamellar armour out of cotton sheets layered up with wood lacquer.



Initially I made it for a LARP game, but it also served me for my first year and a half of SCA heavy fighting.
I had wondered about making larger and more molded pieces - I like this and may experiment myself with it. I could easily see this moving forward for some custom fitted stuff for the "hard to get things to fit" types.

The part I like for new people - minimal tools, easy to get materials and no heat. It would also cut down on the amount of stuff people would need to purchase to: cops, cup and helm.

Thanks for sharing!

[Vladimir]

It keeps asking me to sign up for a flicker account.

Can you post a direct link or the pic itself?

[Malek]

It keeps asking me to sign up for a flicker account.

Can you post a direct link or the pic itself?

Edited now - had to remember how to set direct links from Flickr.

[Myron]

Malik it reminds me of the Chinese paper armor, saw something about it on tv the other day. Layers of paper stuck together with some kind of resin or laquer. Thanks for sharing!

I've been wondering if anyone has done something similar for SCA, even a laminated Linothorax. All debate aside, it would let us know how well it holds up to rattan. I didn't get a chance to test yet, probably be another 2 weeks.

[Konstantin the Red]

I sure as hell would not mix fiberglass into any of this. Glass fiber breaks down into dust -- better known as itching powder, and for a reason. Repeated impacts?? Oy.

You want to incorporate extra hard/stiff, I'd lay aluminum or stainless splints into the scheme, and bury 'em.

To get the upper lames of an articulated knee to mesh with the molded cuisse no doubt calls for tracing a profile of the bottom edge of the cuisse onto something, to show the curvature from inseam to outseam. Cut to this line and use the piece as a jig to determine what that uppermost lame has to lie next to. This matchup won't be awfully tricky to do.

You may want a reinforcing band of light metal down at the bottom end of the cuisse to drill rivet holes through, lateral and medial, for the articulation rivets. If you're good with a mallet, said band can be cusped à la gothic.

[Dan Howard]

Malik it reminds me of the Chinese paper armor, saw something about it on tv the other day. Layers of paper stuck together with some kind of resin or laquer.

We've discussed this before too. Chinese "paper" armour wasn't made from paper - it was made from barkcloth. It wasn't made of little tiles like lamellar and they weren't constructed with glue. It was made of layers of fabric quilted together just like regular cloth armour. Mythbusters have never managed to do a single episode about armour that was any good.

[jamesedgarson]

Myron,

I wonder if adding in a layer or two of something akin to cheese cloth might add some strength while absorbing some of the glue much the same way rebar does for concrete? Cheese cloth isn't EXACTLY what I mean, but if you go into a fabric store and you look for fabric backing you will find a material that looks like, well,..mesh....and if you layered it between your canvas I reckon it would greatly increase the strength and density of the piece...just a thought.

Oh!!!...and what about wrapping part of it around a solid piece like a wine bottle and then belting the outside to the bottle to increase compression?

[jamesedgarson]

Myron,

I wonder if adding in a layer or two of something akin to cheese cloth might add some strength while absorbing some of the glue much the same way rebar does for concrete? Cheese cloth isn't EXACTLY what I mean, but if you go into a fabric store and you look for fabric backing you will find a material that looks like, well,..mesh....and if you layered it between your canvas I reckon it would greatly increase the strength and density of the piece...just a thought.

Oh!!!...and what about wrapping part of it around a solid piece like a wine bottle and then belting the outside to the bottle to increase compression?

[Myron]

James, cheese cloth or something like it would probably work well as a stiffener. The canvas I used is pretty rough, so it picks up a lot of glue. It might not work so well with tighter woven fabrics. I don't think it needs any more strenth than 8 layers, just throwing out some ideas to strengthen it. I thought of fiberglass after seeing the thread on the fiberglass larp armor. It seemed pretty tough, but I don't really know much about it other than using it years ago to reinforce some shields.

I get it, laminated armor wasn't used historically, but it does work for this application. It is used in modern armor as well, like a molded kevlar helmet. Quilting alone will not stop blunt force. I imagine it's protection against piercing is close to the same, but just like modern body armor for parts that you need to protect from blunt impacts like your head it is molded with some sort of adesive, and when it needs to be more flexible like a kevlar vest it isn't.