Myron wrote:Quilting alone will not stop blunt force.
Of course it will. You need to study all of the textile armour we have in various museums. Quilted armour can be as flexible or as rigid as you want just by varying the type of quilting and the number of layers.
I imagine it's protection against piercing is close to the same.
Same as what? You can make quilted armour stop a bullet if you want. Nobody has produced anything to suggest that using glue instead of quilting provides any improvement in protection. The main reason you'd use it is because it is a lot quicker to make. Making proper quilted armour is very labour intensive.
I understand what you are doing and are looking forward to the finished product. You've already acknowledged that what you are doing is not historical. Now you might want to acknowledge that our ancestors were not idiots. Clearly you have not studied the subject and it would be well if you stop making unsupportble claims about a type of armour that has been used all over the world for over three thousand years.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment by Pen & Sword books.
Dude I have never made any claims about any armor being historical. I saw something on paper armor for about 5 minutes on tv, and said Malik's armor reminded me of it. If you quilt 8 layers of canvas, stick it on your leg and hit it with a stick it will hurt. 8 layers laminated wont hurt as bad. That is all I'm saying.
Myron wrote:If you quilt 8 layers of canvas, stick it on your leg and hit it with a stick it will hurt. 8 layers laminated wont hurt as bad. That is all I'm saying.
And you'd be wrong. Quilted textiles can be as rigid as a board if you do it right. The level of protection is no different to your glued construction.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment by Pen & Sword books.
I think the "cheese cloth like" fabric you guys are thinking of is called "gauze". It's a very loose weave and in my opinion would be a waste of effort.
The idea of starting with just 2 layers (of canvas or cotton duck) and letting them dry, then adding more is a really sound concept. You might also consider alternating layers of medium weight linen with the cotton duck and letting each one dry before the next is applied. And you might consider rotating the alternate layers 45 degrees so the weaves of each layer reinforces and stiffens the bias of the layers before and after - the hose you will be wearing are cut on the bias (diagonal) of the fabric because most woven fabrics are stretchy in the diagonal directions and not length wise (warp) or cross wise (weft).
Please keep us informed how well this works in SCA combat!!
Although the plates of my lamellar are not as big as the ones the OP is making, I do have some insight on longevity.
Some plates were made of newspaper
Some were made from cotton sheets
All layered up with wood lacquer.
When it was LARP combat with foam weapons - it held up fine.
When it was SCA combat - the paper ones would shatter rather regularly. The fabric ones - would delaminate and become much more flexible.
It did manage to last for about 8 months and a few tournaments.
When I finally disassembled it after making new armour, I saw the level of damage done. As a lefty fighter, I take my fair share of rib wrap shots. Still it managed to protect rather well.
I can't speak to how well the wood glue will stand up to repeated blunt impacts. Delamination will definitely make it softer and potentially leave your thigh unprotected. I look forward to hearing the results.
The main difficulties will probably be caused by sweat - both the moisture and the salt. After absorbing sweat and drying out a few times it will have two problems: delamination and skin irritation.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment by Pen & Sword books.
Dan Howard wrote:The main difficulties will probably be caused by sweat - both the moisture and the salt. After absorbing sweat and drying out a few times it will have two problems: delamination and skin irritation.
Dan, OP is using Titebond II. He could easily go III. A glue that dries flexible would seem the way to go; we're expecting something that acts like cuirbouilli under hits.
Which might fix the first problem but not the second. Once salt starts impregnating the cloth you'd probably need to have some light padding underneath to stop skin irritation. No way to know for certain until it gets worn for a while.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment by Pen & Sword books.
After it is glued together, shellack it! Shellac is waterproof, but disolves in alcohol. Unless your opponent tosses a gin and tonic on you (I'm melting!!...) , you will be okay.
Last edited by Todd Feinman on Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Since you're going to back this with felt, have you considered simply blocking and gluing felt? Needle felt is pretty cheap. I've always wondering about the "coat hard as nails" Tatar felt coats - there's nothing you can do to felt that's going to get it that stiff - but we already know they blocked/sammed their leather in resin. I've got 1/4" needle felt to hand I could play with. It can be "raised" with decorative stitching and wouldn't even need applique to add additional geometry.
Thanks - this is a really cool thing you've shown us - I can't afford to play with articulations in metal due to lack of tools, and haven't seen as much as I'd like (last armor show and tell down here in TX, the presenter kept literally pulling pieces out of my hands to show details to his sca buddies -- damned aggravating, that) but what I saw was just basic 3d geometry, not even vaguely rocket science, and what you've shown here is enough of a clue that I should be able to actually start making and testing some compression-articulation pieces to bestow on my scooter-trash twin brother.
No one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care.
Russ - I had to look up what blocking felt was. Good idea, you're taking it to the next level. I was just going to cut out a thin piece and glue it on the inside to give it some slight padding more for comfort from the glued canvas, not really from impact. If you do make anything similar, let me know how it works out. I'm not much for working with fabrics, this has been an indoor project for when i can't work on steel. I just ordered some wool for the outside covering and to make hose out of, so I should be able to finish the legs soon.
I'm trying to decide if it will look better to cover the aluminum knees with wool, or blacken them to match the rest of my kit and have them look like floating knees. Not sure if this would look weird, or if the wool would hold up long glued to the metal. I'm trying to go for a late 15th cent. half-armor look - I have simple gothic arms + spaulders, breastplate, sallet + bevor, clamshell gaunts, and a padded jack.
Not sure about looks - this would mostly be ahistorical stuff for me, so that my students can safely train parry/riposte-type actions with a real waster or sabre on my body. But I"ll definitely keep you in the loop.
No one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care.
Your experiment reminds me of a loosely similar attempt I saw back in 1987. I was living near Fredericton, New Brunswick (Canada) when I visited the local SCA group for a fight practice.
One fellow in the group was trying out fabricated 3/4 plate style leg armour using carpet (end of roll remnant) and epoxy resin. I can't recall correctly if he was also trying to fab arm and body armour. IIRC his technique involved cutting the carpet to pattern size, shaping on the limb (carpet face in and base/weave out) and applying the first coat of epoxy. Once that had cured, the piece was removed and additional coats of epoxy applied.
It seemed to work well for protection, but a very heavy square-on hit would produce a small amount of crazing in the epoxy. His biggest problem seemed to be risking dehydration/heat prostration! The carpet was extremely good insulation.
I'm curious to see how your efforts turn out. Best of luck.
Here's a quick update - I've been slowly working to finish this, I have one leg done and just need to finish straps on the other. I used some cotton flannel to cover it, stitched the thigh wrap plate on, and added some 1/8" foam recovered from some scrap laminate flooring to add some padding to the inside. I will probably hang the legs from a belt at the hips, and I am considering adding a roundel to the outside of the knee for some added protection. I'm not sure if I need to yet. The cop needs another coat of linseed oil and some padding on the inside as well.
I also have made a test piece that I am going to put on a pell and beat the crap out of to see how well this stuff holds up.
It looks exceptionally good. Covering it in fabric added a lot to the appearance. I'm betting that doing something similar with a color closer to skin tone will really improve some of the "unarmored period" kits out there (assuming it holds up to some abuse). Be sure to let us know how the pell test goes.
I did some extremely scientific testing by hitting things with sticks, and here's what happened:
The pics are small, I should post them somewhere else and link to it but they will have to do for now. I also will get up some pictures of the finished legs being worn; I like them a lot.
I made a test piece that is roughly 7" x 9" the same way as the legs (8 layers of canvas, flannel cover, and foam padding) except I didn't use linseed oil to coat it. It was curved onto a gallon paint can so it has some shape to it. I hung it on a tree and gave it 50 good blows to roughly the same area. It held up very well, only some very minor flattening of the curvature of the piece where it took the most hits. You may not even be able to tell from the pictures. The foam got a flattened some, but it was directly against the bark of the tree. I will probably try for 50 more hits and see what happens. I wasn't holding back, I was trying to destroy the stuff. I think it will hold up well, the only issue might be moisture or heat. If the pieces are left in the sun for a long time, they lose some rigidity until it cools down.
50 solid blows with no mechanical failure; your design is very promising!
-Rodney
Mercenary Company Nevermore, Nordskogen
“I have been known to drink cheap beer (and sake), only because I refuse to drink cheap scotch... And well ya gotta cut corners somewheres.” - Drogo Bryce
It isn't soft from the hits; it just slightly flattened the spot that was hit. When actually worn, I don't imagine you will get hit that many times in the exact same spot, at least not in a short period. It does have some bounce back and when flexed it returns to its original shape. I will try to put up pics of the finished legs on when I get a chance. I had a catastrophe with my garage door over the weekend and spent the whole weekend tearing it down and getting ready to put a new one up. I wore the armor around the house for a few hours, very comfortable to wear. The real test will be to fight in it, I have been spending all my free time finishing up my kit and not going to practices. Hopefully I can get to one soon if I ever get a free weekend.
I took another small piece that was not coated with linseed oil and ran it under the faucet for a minute to check how it resisted water. It got soft, but dried out after a few hours. The edges on one side came apart slightly, but they weren’t very clean on the side that did. I wouldn't want to wear these in a torrential downpour, but some water won't hurt it. You could probably use a better sealer to coat it. Next time I will use Titebond III. I was wondering if that Flex-Seal stuff you see in the infomercials would work to coat it with. I also probably should have used a lighter color for the cloth shell; it wouldn't absorb as much heat. I'm going to make a set for my brother next month and might try out some of these changes.
One thing I have found out is that the laminate works best for things that have a lot of shape like legs and arms. The piece I made for my kidneys flexes too much because it's flatter and doesn't absorb impact very well. I'm not going to use it - going to make it out of aluminum instead.
Thank you for starting this post. What you did corresponds very closely to what I was going to try. Luckily, you did a lot of the experimentation. This looks like a great way for me to do some low profile legs and arms.
Myron, I think you have done a mighty service here.
For one thing, you've devised and given how-to on a substitute for cuirbouilli that doesn't even need an oven, depending on the adhesive. Yet it can do certain things cuir is already being applied for, like those formfitting wraparound greaves with medial lace-up that enjoyed some vogue in the middle fourteenth.
Kudos.
Now let's get playing around with this concoction -- this confection -- this lasagna! Reinforcing, formfitting rigid splints can be smuggled into its layers too.
Mayhap even some holes drilled through the splints, ventilation-like, to allow better adhesion of the sandwhiching layers.
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
Thanks, Konstantin, I wanted to share this as I haven't seen it done before. It would be great to see more experimentation with it!
Splints is a good idea, I might try it for the next set. Even thin plastic splints would add some strength and probably adhere well if you drilled it and roughed it up with sandpaper. That would solve the problem of the canvas getting soft when exposed to a lot of heat. Since my last post I haven't had any time to do anything with armor. I'm hoping to go to a practice this Sunday and test the legs but it looks like there is also an event happening that many of the local fighters might be going to, so not sure it if will happen.
I am very interested in this. I think it would make great low profile armour, but it still looks good enough to mimic cloth covered armour. I think this may be the way I make my greaves. I definitely want to here how it holds up to a stick.
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. -Jon Hammond
A glue that is temperature insensitive once cured would go a long way to eliminate a softening problem. Choosing which adhesive to use will have a lot of effect on the behavior of pieces in this composite.
It's a little more expensive, but I'm going to experiment with Titebond III to hopefully minimize any environmental issues from sweat, heat, and so on. I'm going to make some little pieces for testing.
The other thing I'm curious to see is how this method will behave if I do 1~2 layers at a time allowing for thorough drying between applications compared to doing it all at once. Someone suggested earlier that starting thin would make shaping simpler and I think that's a very good idea.
, you will be okay.
