Dusting off the cobwebs

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Mac
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Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

After several years of not working on armor, I am finally going to finish the St. Florian project.

This is the project I was working on when by elbows gave out on me, and it has been on hold ever since. My August Patron (who shall otherwise remain unnamed) has been extremely patient, but the time has come to finish this thing. My elbows still hurt, but realistically... I'm 56 years old, and they are never going to get better. Healing is for kids, and we old goats must deal with what we've got left. I must get some use out of my elbows before I injure something else.... The trick will be striking a balance between working cautiously and getting something done. With luck, I will have the brains to know when to slow down or take a break.

It is my plan to document the completion of this long overdue project in this thread. I have installed a couple of electric heaters in the shop, and spent some of the last two weeks straightening up and organizing. Although I moved into the shop four years ago, I have never really set it up, and many of my tools have been in boxes on shelves.

Yesterday I brought the armor and the stand down out of storage. Today I have reassembling the stand and put the armor on it. It is rusty and covered in cobwebs. I had been looking for a title for this thread, and I see that the armor's condition is a mirror of mine own.

I will post some pictures of it as soon as my camera batteries finish charging.

Mac
This is 60 year old Mac editing 56 year old Mac's thread. Here is a link to a summery of this thread. It recaps each page, and can serve as a sort of condensed version, or as an aid to finding the goodies without slogging through all of my thread. It is the kind and diligent work of Zubeydah, whom we should praise.

Thank you Ma'am!

Mac From the Future
Last edited by Mac on Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
Robert MacPherson

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Konstantin the Red
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Konstantin the Red »

Invest in a hydraulic press to bend metal in. Stop hitting things and start squashing them with mighty force instead.

Any prospect of retaining a younger striker with an intact set of joints? Or building yourself a helve-hammer and using your leg muscles to do the hitting with? "Watch me dance on this armor until it's done!" Whomp whomp whomp
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Keegan Ingrassia
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

I am excited. :) I never thought I'd get to see another armor project from you; looking forward to seeing your progress with the absolute highest anticipation.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Here is the armor as it is currently.

Image

....and again, from a less imposing angle. The flash really shows off the rust.

Image

Although some of the flutes are in.....
Image

....others exist only as sketchy sharpy lines.

ImageImage

Here is one of the besigews that I was working on when me right elbow went south. I was too engrossed in the project to heed the warning signs. I hope I am wiser for it.
Image

So... Most of the parts are roughed out, and some of the flutes are laid. The gauntlets are well along, but still need finger lames.

The only thing that needs major reworking is the shoulder/upper cannon assemblies. The "tubes within tubes" thing that is shown on the statue I am copying just does not work well enough. I am going to have to compromise the design and go with something a bit more typical. But more on that when I come to it. That part was giving me all sorts of trouble, and I am not going to begin there. I hope to gather a little steam first be tackling the easy stuff.

I need to review my notes and make sure that nothing needs any tweaking.

Tomorrow I hope to just pick a part and start working.

Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Konstantin the Red wrote:Invest in a hydraulic press to bend metal in. Stop hitting things and start squashing them with mighty force instead.

Any prospect of retaining a younger striker with an intact set of joints? Or building yourself a helve-hammer and using your leg muscles to do the hitting with? "Watch me dance on this armor until it's done!" Whomp whomp whomp
K,

When someone can show me something they built with a machine that I can not do better with a hammer I will make a note of it. A hammer in a well practiced hand is a subtle and versatile thing.

Seriously, I'm too old for a paradigm change. By the time I built a machine, (and then probably a different one), and learned to use it properly, I would be drooling old geezer.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:I am excited. :) I never thought I'd get to see another armor project from you; looking forward to seeing your progress with the absolute highest anticipation.
Thank you for your enthusiastic support, KI. I hope I can live up to all that.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Ernst »

I'm excited for you, Mac. Though I sadly realize you'll have less time for discussing armor as you spend more time making it.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by coreythompsonhm »

I am extremely excited to see that you are back to tackling an armour project! Please take care of yourself though so that you may continue doing what you enjoy doing!
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Jeff J »

So, when should I come by for fittings? ;)

Seriously, good to see you starting back up. Please take care of yourself.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Halberds »

[Hal picks up guitar and sings] ♫ I'm back in the saddle again♫.

Looking forward to more progress pics.

Huzzah!

Hal
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Konstantin the Red »

Mac wrote:When someone can show me something they built with a machine that I can not do better with a hammer I will make a note of it. A hammer in a well practiced hand is a subtle and versatile thing.

Seriously, I'm too old . . . a . . . geezer.
Understood -- the roughing-in, coarsely forming stage was what I had these equipments in mind for, handling the large steps before the small artistic ones come into their greatest play.

I'll leave singing the artsy virtues of a handheld air-planisher head to someone with experience of the tool, whoever that is. I'd bet that such an apparatus would need some weight to it to have the inertia to resist simply bouncing away from the metal you're trying to smooth when you hit the trigger.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Kristoffer »

You should really get some apprentices that can do all the dirty work for you Mac. I am sure there are a lot of good guys and gals out there that would love to be your slaves.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Paladin74 »

Looks museum ready almost; your work is awe-inspiring and I look forward to seeing this project finished.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Thank you all for your support!

I hope not to disappoint.

Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Konstantin,

Rereading what I wrote, I see that sounded sort of pissy. I am sorry I was a bit short. I hope you are not offended.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

I have been rummaging through my notebooks, looking for my notes on the fitting session. Having found them, I am only barely better informed. There are two pages that look like the Voynich manuscript. Sometimes I wish I could write legibly.

So far as I can tell, the only major problem (aside from the shoulders) is that the fauld needs to come out another 3/4' or so in the front. I had a vague recollection that fauld replacement was in my future, but I could not remember what the problem was. It's all spelled out in diagrams, though, so I won't need to call in any cryptologists to decipher my writing.

ImageImage

The fauld is going to be pretty straightforward, but emotionally taxing. I should not have wasted any time with the flutes before the fitting, and I will not let myself forget that until is replaced and the old one in the scrap box. It pisses me off that I was so sure of myself that I went ahead with decoration before the fitting. The fluting probably only took an hour or so, but it was throwing good work after bad.

No. I don't think I can face fauld replacement today. Perhaps some nice mindless fluting. The lines are all laid out on the cuisses, and they are thin stuff. Maybe this is a good starter. I need to find the pics of the St. Florian statue and make sure that I still hold with the flutes as I drew them. I think I remember where those pics are....

More anon.

Mac
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Johann ColdIron »

Godspeed Mac!

Wish I was close enough to offer a hand or an ear. I'd love to spend some time with you in the shop. Even though I am terribly spoiled with having Wade and Tom J. within driving distance there is something to learn from every armourer!

With my back I have to take my time and pay attention to it's complaints. It is irritating. Hopefully your elbows will tell you when to stop. I look forward to seeing your artistry in progress.

No pressure. :lol:
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by schreiber »

Mac, of all the things you know, have you never practiced calligraphy? I have two modes of writing - chicken scratch, and "I might want to read this later". I credit the second mode to the fact that my dad taught me calligraphy at age 10.
Writing is just like filing or planishing... I can blow through it and get it generally done, or I can slow down a bit. ;)
But calligraphy's a bit different because doesn't work at all if you don't focus on it.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

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ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Konstantin the Red »

Mac wrote:Konstantin,

Rereading what I wrote, I see that sounded sort of pissy. I am sorry I was a bit short. I hope you are not offended.

Mac
No worries whatsoever, Mac. The subtleties of hand-work forming the metal are apparent -- even, more or less subliminally, to the untrained eye, as well as clearly to the experienced -- the imprecisions, if you will (and some of us won't). We've valued this effect ever since we began to notice that a greathelm formed entirely on a sliproller looked different, more straight-lined and geometric, than a hand-worked one; that we could considerably and visibly improve the preciseness of the breaths in a Pembridge with measured layout and a flexible rule, not the freehand sorta-straight layout grid of the original articles. We're able to make it too exact compared to the fourteenth century originals, which allows us to distinguish modern pro armourer work from the ancient. We've valued this -- softening -- ever since that Smithsonian magazine article about the armorer who liked to whack up his pieces out of salvaged automobile sheet metal, by hand. The issue with the cover story on Barbies.

We get fitting close, but nowhere near the .001" precision expected of most machining. We do well to land within .01" and a lot of what we do is fine with .05".

What we are doing is among other things wearable sculpture, and an artist's talent for form, rather than a machinist's no lesser talent at form, is what's called for. We can't make Beverlys work without Mr. Master Machinist and/or his Haas Automation CNC big box.

And they told me in elementary school I had awful handwriting too. My loops tend to close up very tight and my script wanders up and down from a ruled baseline, my b's like f's, sometimes my f's like b's, my signature wobbles and variable-spaces untidily, though the letters may always be seen, bent but not eroded into a tiny squiggle.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Schreiber,

I tried calligraphy many years ago. Somehow, I wasn't able to keep it separated in my head from "writing" and all its attendant baggage. Further, my hands are not very steady. My sketches will attest to that. All in all, it just was not for me.

Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Ernst wrote:Of all places to find an image...
http://www.historicenterprises.biz/jour ... lorian.jpg
Oh yes. Jeff H did a St Florian some years ago. If I recall correctly it was for the Higgins (?)

I can't recall which of us started first, but there is no question who got their's done sooner.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

I have spent much of the morning looking for my photos and reference pics for St Florian. I checked all the places where I hoped to find the files, and then moved on to boxes in storage. After looking through about eight different boxes, (some of them more than once) I finally found them. I did not want to have the usual experience of finding something "in the last place I looked", so I took Dave R's advise and checked in one more place.

Here is an overall view of St. Florian. He is the patron of firefighters, and here he is making short work of blaze by dousing it with the contents of a splendid ewer. In case anyone was wondering why I posed my armor stand the way I did....
Image

More after lunch...
Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by VRIN »

Soo excited, those besegews are the appetizer for an epic ensemble!
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by James Arlen Gillaspie »

Those rondels are, indeed, the cat's pajamas. I lay my own handwriting woes on having done caligraphy; ever since, things go to hell with my handwriting unless I concentrate and go VERRRY slowly... like caligraphy. :cry:
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

The besagews on the statue are delightful. I did not exactly "nail them" though. Mine lack a certain sprezzatura, and I wish I had made them just a bit bigger.

Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mike England »

Great to hear you are back to work Mac. I look forward to seeing you complete this project.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

I have turned my attention to the fluting of the demi-greave and "demi-cuisse". As we can see from the picture, there is a border on each of these. In both cases the border is bounded by a flute, and that flute should be parallel to the edge of the plate. The border of the demi-cuisse is a bit broader than its opposite number below the knee, and that is reflected in a more complex pattern of filework. In the first case, the holes are surmounted by fleurs-de-lis and in the other, the edge is scalloped.

Image

Well... I missed the importance of that parallel flute when I laid these out. My demi-greave flutes diverge from the edges, and the spacing of the flutes on the demi-cuisse are not even or correct. Letting a project sit for a few years can open your eyes. On the other hand I don't recommend such a long period of contemplation.

Image
ImageImage

So, now I have to make good on that. I have drawn some lines here that indicate where I am headed. The lower edge of the demigreave will be cut to bring flutes parallel to toward the sides. The points of the flutes will be reworked to their new lines to make that part parallel as well. I am also trimming the length of the points of the demi-greaves. I think the change will help to flatter The Patron's lower legs. As it was, the length of the point was making his shins look short.

The demi-cuisse had not been fluted, so the changes will be easier here.
Image

I have not fluted anything in a while. This will be fun.

Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Tom B. »

Mac wrote:The besagews on the statue are delightful. I did not exactly "nail them" though. Mine lack a certain sprezzatura, and I wish I had made them just a bit bigger.

Mac
I thought I remember seeing a slightly different version of these in a now lost post from several years ago.
Am I remembering incorrectly?

Glad to see you back at work and grateful for you creating the thread to share the progress / process.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by lorenzo2 »

That is a very elegant work of art and I'm sure you will do it justice. Although the fancy hat on the statue is nice I'm wondering what is planned for the helm? Some sort of highly decorated sallet and bevor? Is there a similar piece that has a helmet that you can work from?
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Kel Rekuta »

Mac,

It makes my heart glad to hear you have picked up a hammer again. Ease into it and remind us how its done. 8)
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Sam O. »

That looks really nice, even un-finished, and that besagew is very pretty. It's like a little teaser of things to come.

Can I just ask though, if you have any info/pics of that armour stand by itself? It sounds like it's quite articulated and looks fairly solid.

Good luck with it, I'll echo the sentiment to take care of yourself.
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Jason Grimes »

Yay! :D
Keegan Ingrassia wrote:I am excited. :) I never thought I'd get to see another armor project from you; looking forward to seeing your progress with the absolute highest anticipation.
What he said!!
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by RandallMoffett »

Mac,

As always your work is just amazing! I'd have volunteered to help clean the rust off just to be able to see this in person! Glad to see you at work making armour again. Wish I had a fraction of your skill!!!

RPM
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Re: Dusting off the cobwebs

Post by Mac »

Thanks for the support, guys! I am sort of choked up...

Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
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