Dusting off the cobwebs

[Mac]

This morning I got that fourth eyelet sewn in.



When I assemble the individual pads, I like to whip them together on the inside and then do the same to the outside. It's probably overkill, really.



After the segments are all sewn together, I turn up the raw edge and whip that down. This makes it easier to sew the lining into the helmet. If you try to turn the edge in as you sew it can sometimes get a bit fussy. Additional fussy is not what's called for here. It's already going to be fussy enough.



One last reality check before I sew it in; and it looks OK.



Mac

[Mac]

Here's what the sewing in process looks like.



The result looks OK



Now I just need to get a chinstrap on there. I imagine that the buckle would be best if it ended up on the right, but I'm not sure if its strap should pass under the chin first. It's about whether one should be pulling up or down to tighten the strap. Also, I'm not sure if I should use a single buckle or a double. I'm going to look at my images and see if I can figure out what's typical.

Mac

[Mac]

I'm done with the helmet, so I thought I would take a couple of pics that showed off Rene K's twisty rivet caps.



Mac

[Ckanite]

WOW! Mac that is absolutely beautiful!

[Rene K.]

Thanks mac for the pictures ! The rivet caps are looking very nice on the helmet. Hope you had not that much work to finish them.

[Mac]

They finished up in a couple of hours, Rene. The only trouble spots were where the metal had gotten pinched between the tools. Those places took a bit of careful grinding.

I had planned to only have the caps on the lining band rivets. But I carried away and drilled holes for the chin strap and a storage loop so I could use a couple more. Nothing exceeds like excess!

Mac

[Rene K.]

Fine, thats why i sended you some more than needed

[Mac]

I didn't pick and chose, but just cleaned them all up. I've got 2 left over that are gilt and ready to go, and 10 that are in a sort of medium state of polish. That leaves one unaccounted for. It got out of my grip on the buffing wheel and disappeared somewhere. I heard it bounce off at least three things, but with my earplugs in, I couldn't figure out which way it went.

Mac

[Mac]

Now that the plate work is under control, I have a sort of rudderless feeling. I ordered up the fabric that I will need for the final version of the garment that the mail sleeves will be sewn to. I picked up some of the junk in the shop and put some tools away.

I also dealt with a thing that had been waiting for me to have fifteen minutes and a clear head. When I mounted the tasset buckles and attached the tassets several weeks ago, I was a bit concerned about how they did not sit right up close to the fauld. I had hoped that they would lay better as the leather stretched in, but there has been little sign of that.

The problem is clearly about how the leather enters the top of the buckle.



When I undid the leather from the lower part of the buckles, the tassets hung like they were supposed to.... and there's the key to the thing.



Here's a closer view of one of the buckles, both ways.



The problem is clearly that there is not enough bend in the buckle frames. I needed to bend them so that the upper part could do its job while still leaving room for the leather in lower part. I did that using a hand vise with a bit of tape on the jaws to protect the finish of the buckles.



That fixed the trouible, and I have done it to all of the tasset buckles.



In a few days, my fabric will arrive and I'll be employed again.

Mac

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

I'm always running into that problem myself, of not having enough 'V' in the buckles for the thickness of leather I'm using. I have to tweak them quite often, but sometimes they are old and look too likely to crack!

[Mac]

James,

Do you have a leather splitter? Old ones are frequently better and cheaper than new ones, and can be had on Ebay. Here are some sold listings of Osborn splitters, and what they went for recently. I think I got mine for about $150 a couple of years ago.

Mac

[Mac]

I need to find a source for suitable laces to hold this armor together. I am willing to consider either textile tape or leather lace, so long as it is strong and supple. I think what I am seeing in the pictures is mostly leather... but it's hard to tell.





Mac

[Jason Grimes]

I'm pretty sure that they are silk ribbons? It's later but those yellow mid 16th century knitted ubber hosen had silk points. I think that Ernst had also said that silk ribbon might have been used for points.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=181664&p=2762073&h ... s#p2762073

Other examples:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=173292&p=2741496&h ... s#p2741496

[Mac]

They may well have used silk, at least some of the time.

One of the reasons I am leaning toward leather is that we have a couple of images that support the idea that they were sometimes leather as well.

Here in Jost Amman's Ständebuch we have the work of the Nestler. These guys are clearly making leather laces with metal tips.



In the Hausbücher, the nestler seems to be the guy who put the points on the laces....



... and the laces are cut by the Riemenschneider



We don't know that those leather strips are destined to be laces with metal tips... but I think it's a pretty good guess.

Also, we have the evidence of the Charles de Blois garment, which has it's center back lace made of leather.

So, I think leather is a strong candidate. On the other hand, I'm ready to consider any textile tape of ribbon that will do the job.

Mac

[Rene K.]

I use leather laces from deerskin, and that works very well. The points i hammering directly over the ends of the straps, so i can get anice slim points that hold perfectly and i can reach a diameter from about 2,5 - 3mm if i want. I use a simple v-shaped die and a small hammer.
On the pictures i allways saw the guys hammering the laces and this for shure is not only making the rivets i think.

http://www.eysenkleider.com/unsere-arbeiten/accessoirs/#

This is an example with more fast made ones for simple using. With the needed time it is no problem to make clear and straight ones on the ends of the laces.

[Sean M]

According to The King's Servants leather or silk points were sold by the dozen in 16th century England. The leather kind were the cheap ones. Don't know of any evidence from late 15th century Germany.

It would be great to see the process of someone who makes aiglets out of sheet and a rivet (I am told that a few aiglets were cast). That is a process where every second matters.

I have also been thinking about points. Crowfoot et all. T&C talk about the London finds of silk braid from page 136 onwards.

I have some of lorifactor's but they don't sound like what you are looking for. HE sells braided cotton points by the dozen as does Revival Clothing. I don't remember coming across anyone else who sells pre-made versions. Medieval Rats sells waxed linen points with aglets by the dozen.

It may say something that the modern makers avoid silk. "How a man schall be armyd at his ese" seems to recommend a celulose-based thread, but late 15th century German practice could be different than earlier English.

"And undir the arme the armynge poyntis muste be made of fyne twyne suche as men make stryngis for crossbowes and they muste be trussid small and poyntid as poyntis. Also they muste be wexid with cordeweneris coode. And than they woll neythirrecche nor breke."

[Sean M]

The Tudor Tailor sells leather points with brass aiglets by the dozen, but they are not cheap https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1229351 ... _active_10

I suspect that they would be happy to talk about sources.

[Mac]

I use leather laces from deerskin, and that works very well.

Are you buying it as lace, or cutting it yourself?

Can you make them with wider but thinner leather?

The points i hammering directly over the ends of the straps, so i can get anice slim points that hold perfectly and i can reach a diameter from about 2,5 - 3mm if i want. I use a simple v-shaped die and a small hammer.
On the pictures i allways saw the guys hammering the laces and this for shure is not only making the rivets i think.

The 16th C Hausbuch images seem to show a specialized little anvil with grooves.

Mac

[Mac]

According to The King's Servants leather or silk points were sold by the dozen in 16th century England. The leather kind were the cheap ones. Don't know of any evidence from late 15th century Germany.

I have also been thinking about points. Crowfoot et all. T&C talk about the London finds of silk braid from page 136 onwards.

Good to know. Thanks!

It would be great to see the process of someone who makes aiglets out of sheet and a rivet (I am told that a few aiglets were cast). That is a process where every second matters.

I suspect that the cast ones are mostly for the heavy round cord that one sees on cloaks etc. We have a couple of fragments of cast pewter tips in our collection. They are about 4 or 5 mm id.

I have some of lorifactor's but they don't sound like what you are looking for. HE sells braided cotton points by the dozen as does Revival Clothing. I don't remember coming across anyone else who sells pre-made versions. Medieval Rats sells waxed linen points with aglets by the dozen.

Thanks for the links!

It's strange... what we see in the pics is typically flat, but what most reenactors use is round.

It may say something that the modern makers avoid silk. "How a man schall be armyd at his ese" seems to recommend a celulose-based thread, but late 15th century German practice could be different than earlier English.

"And undir the arme the armynge poyntis muste be made of fyne twyne suche as men make stryngis for crossbowes and they muste be trussid small and poyntid as poyntis. Also they muste be wexid with cordeweneris coode. And than they woll neythirrecche nor breke."

I am always a bit suspicious of the recommendations of that manuscript. We hope that he is telling us about common practice, but he's really telling us about what to do in estrimo. The cordweneris coode is going to make the knots impossible to untie. These are not your typical arming laces, but a sort of high performance, one use, "super lace" that you will have to be cut out of at the end of the day.... one way or another.

Mac

[Mac]

The Tudor Tailor sells leather points with brass aiglets by the dozen, but they are not cheap https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1229351 ... _active_10

Thanks! These are starting to have the flat look that we see in the pics. They are a bit pricey, but it's not out of the scope of the project. It's worth something to not have to make the tips.

I suspect that they would be happy to talk about sources.

You think? I don't know anything about them. Some folks are quite jealous of their sources and get all offended when you ask. I would be loath to do so unless someone assured me that they were laid back about it.


Mac

[Tom B.]

It is also worth noting that Historic Enterprises also sells both hemp & linen arming points, scroll down the page & look at page 2.

HE Points Page

[Rene K.]

This is how i make my laces with points. Just made fast for making the pictures and with a older strap of brass.
The brass sheet has 0,5mm. The deerskin is 1,5 - 2mm thick and 11 mm whide. The point is ca, 3,5 mm in diameter and 38 mm long.
I use a simple die with some V-shaped channels. After cutting out the brass edges, i form them fit hthe hammer peen to a little overroled U-shape. After plugg in the deerskin strap i close the cone on the respective die. At last i plane the conical form on the anvil and punch in a drilling center for a rivet with a automatic center punch.
Hope you enjoy.

[Rene K.]

and some more. Think the sequence is backward.

[Rene K.]

That works with all kinds of laces. Flat, round, textile or leather. In this way you get a really big quantity of material inside the points. much more than plugging in a lace in a ready roled points. And with the core of lacematerial it is easy to form a nice conical shape.
The center punch would be enough for fix the lace in the point, but a rivet is the genuine way.
If you decorate the sheet bevore cutting out, you get decorated points.

[Mac]

Thank you, Rene!

Are you annealing your brass first?

It's probably been 15 or 20 years since I made any of these. I'm sort of looking forward to it.

Mac

[Galileo]

Thanks! These are starting to have the flat look that we see in the pics. They are a bit pricey, but it's not out of the scope of the project. It's worth something to not have to make the tips.
Mac

Note that is for a dozen points - so just under $6 each. Not that bad for what you're getting, really.

G--

[Rene K.]

I just use the brass as hard as it comes. No annealing, so you have a little resistance while hammering and you get a nice shape.

[Mac]

Thank you Rene!

Mac

[wcallen]

John and I had a nice visit with the gauntlets and salade on Sunday at the Baltimore Arms Fair. Thanks to Mac for bringing it down and letting us play with them.

Very, very nice work. I expect that John will toss a couple of pictures up at some point. I was to busy playing with things to take pictures.

Wade

[Mac]

It was a pleasure to see y'all.

Mac

[Mac]

I have not just been screwing off these last few days. I've been planning and scheming about the remaining parts of the armor.

One of the things that has been vexing throughout is how the mail breyette will be suspended, and how that will interact with everything else. I've decided that the thing I will try is to have the breyette and the cuisses attach to a shaped belt that will lay over the skirt of the doublet. That's what I think I am seeing in this statue.



I also have some corroborating evidence from a couple of other sources. In this painting, the tormentor with the scourge has his hosen trussed up to a shaped belt.



We also have this misericord carving of an acrobat. While it's difficult to interpret, I think he has a shaped belt holding up his hosen, and that belt is loosely tied to his doublet so he can do his thing without being much encumbered by his clothing.



The first thing I needed to to do was make up a suitable belt in my own size so I could get the shape right. I made numerous changes over four iterations. The first two had broad tabs to which I imagined the leg armor to tie. In the later ones, I gave that up. The ties can probably be in the body of the belt. That will give longer "free" lace lengths, and in my experience, that's all to the good.



The other modifications are all subtle changes in the curves. I want the upper edge of this to follow the waist of the armor and the doublet, while the lower edge ends up more or less horizontal. Meanwhile, it should cling like a skin over the pelvis from the center back to the anterior illiac crest before diving down under the belly where is it is stable. This belt is a lot more comfortable than it looks. Once I get it sitting right, and all cinched up, I think I could wear it for hours. The only problem is that it tries to shove my pants down.... perhaps I need to truss them up to it...



My August Patron is larger than I am, but our lower torsos are similarly enough shaped that I think I can just add to the length of this belt template and fudge the curves a bit till it looks right.



The plan for this is to sew a mock-up of this belt and send it off to him to try on. That will take some of the load off the upcoming fitting schedule.

Mac

[Mac]

The other item on my mind today is the spurs. I've begun making a pinterest album of (mostly) late 15th C spurs, both extant and in art.

The spurs will go under the greaves and sabatons, and the only parts we will see will be the necks and their rowels protruding from under the heel arches of the greave backs. As such, I'll need to keep everything as low profile as possible.

I'm currently leaning toward something with straight arms like this one. (Yes, I know the pic is upside down)



If anyone knows of any good examples that I have missed, please post them or send me a link. Thanks!


Mac

[Tom B.]

I have a few images

Check out this search of the RA Online Collection


My photo of one on display in Leeds. (Click on images to load higher resolution versions)


Another of my photos of an example from the RA's collection this one was previously displayed at the Frazier in Louisville. (Click on images to load higher resolution versions)

[Tom B.]

I have had a belt/lendenier on my project list for the exact reasons and purposes it is now on your agenda.
I have a couple of prototype shapes cut from canvas to sew up and try out and some good heavy hemp canvas for the final project.
I suspect that I will not be able to get back to it until early May.

[Mac]

I have a few images

Check out this search of the RA Online Collection


My photo of one on display in Leeds. (Click on images to load higher resolution versions)

Thanks, Tom!

Does anyone know how to rig a spur like the one above? There are more strap fittings than I know what to do with.

Mac