The Armour Archive

Hi!
Have you talked to Albert and Per about visiting, since you are in Sweden.. I know it's not really that close, but if they have the time, I bet they can give you lots of opinions on modern vs medieval methods and such..
They are both very nice guys..
And if you need some carbon steel sheets, I've got plenty! (and I'm a lot closer)
Good luck and congratulations to having the opportunity to study at Steneby!

I talked with Per. I'm gonna visit him this summer in late July/early August for a very brief apprenticeship.

Carbon steel sheets? Awesome! Maybe I'll get in contact with you later this summer, for having them then next semester when I'll be back in Sweden.

Don't worry about a lot of posts, Gustovic! We native speakers of English can read them faster than you can write them! And we love pictures (they save words by the thousand, you know )!

I'm home, finally.

Lot's of thing to do. Basically this summer I want to renew ALL of my kit. Arm harness. leg harness, torso and helm. It will be extremely difficult, but it's worth a try.

I think I will begin with the leg harness, as it's the most in need of a decent work, as I made mine last year not knowing very well how to properly shape the plates. I was thinking to go with a "floating" system, so 3 separate pieces held together maybe by leather straps. I don't feel like adventuring into articulation yet, as trying to get it right on the first try will be really hard.

Hopefully pics will come during this or the next week.

Ps.

Finally in Italy! =)

Hello everyone!

Here I am, again.

After this two weeks I was finally able to do something concrete, as I started working again in my old workshop.

After all the good speeches about historical accuracy and integrity, I obviously started making a 2 piece welded bascinet, because who doesn't love hypocrisy?!

Jokes aside, right now I only have access to my small gas forge, so raising a single piece helm is not an option. But when I will finally get ho on some coal, I might use a coal forge a friend of mine put together last year.

I'm still working out on my raising skills and figuring out which tools I own are good for what purpose. And I also began to work with patterns and measurements, so a lot if things at once.

Right now the helm is something like on the second pass, as I finished the gas and I won't be getting it until Monday.
If the half looks confusional to you, you are absolutely right, as I used curling, dishing and raising all together in no precise sequence, and I discovered how to raise it properly only yesterday, so from now on I hope it will be done in a more ordinate fashion.










and here are that stake and the hammer I used for raising





C&C always welcome!

It's a long way to the top if you wanna rock&roll.... but it seems you are on the right highway..... to hell.

So, for not letting the topic die, I'll upload some pics of the experimentation I'm doing right now.

First, a couter raised with the new stake. That didn't go quite well...




as the stake is quite aggressive and punches the metal from the inside, causing the inevitable crack



then I made the second and third raising passes with the bascinet half. That one wen a little bit better.or the first pass as I showed I used the beak stake, but after seeing the results on the couter, I decided to use a ball stake that I had lying around in th workshop.

second pass



third pass




Far from perfect, at least is better that the couter!



C&C welcome as always!

Remember that hammer and stake decide which move the metal depending on contact surface, the thing with the smaller surface is the one that will make move most of the metal, in your case, the edges of your stake cutted through the metal because this was the easiest outcome for the metal.

Gusto,

You will do much better to raise over a rounded surface, like a ball stake.

Years ago, when I was teaching myself to raise, I tried using sharp edged stakes like the silversmiths use. It was a disaster. In desperation, I tried raising on a ball stake, even though I "knew it was wrong". I have never looked back.

We are not silversmiths. What works for them does not necessarily work for us.

Mac

Mac, you are right. I just wanted to try to use the tools depicted in Dupras' thesis. Evidently that stake is not meant for couters. Pointy visors and gothic-styled couters, maybe.
In the next days I will try another couter with the ball stake I have (one of those hooks you mount on the back of the car for trailers)


And when I'll go back to Sweden I'll forge a proper one from a single piece of tool steel. Maybe even different sizes.

Good work, Gustovic. I really dig the home-made tools. I would really like to start forging my own hammers.

I wouldn't worry about being 100% historically accurate all the time though. Compromising in method and materials is just a fact of life in the 21st century. As long as your constantly striving for a historically accurate shape, your work will be good.

Waddup?

No real armour update, something slightly OT, just not to let die the thread. This has been the shittiest summer ever, and my work has been influenced by it. I really hope that when I'll be back in Sweden in September things will bet better.

Anyways, here's my mid-late XIVth century poleaxe.
Length: 1,7 m
Weight: 2,5 kg (a bit heavy, yeah)

Long time no see, folks.

Time to resurrect the thread, gentlemen.

So, what I'm doing right now is experimenting with making a sheet of metal out of a steel ingot. Like the real deal, like in the old days.

I cut out two pieces. One is 80x80x15mm and weights 2,55 kilos. The other is 80x80x90mm and weights 4,55 kilos.


I started working on the small one.

For the start I used a powerhammer, as it's difficult to find a striker around school and it's just faster to do the rough job.

I didn't document the change of size on the first two passes, but you get the idea.

First pass

Second pass

Third pass. Approx. 150x150x15mm

Fourth pass. Approx. 200x200x12mm

Fifth pass. Approx. 230x200x10mm

Sixth pass. Approx. 250x200x8mm

Seventh pass. Approx. 270x220x5,5mm

Eighth pass. Approx. 280x240x5mm


Here are the various thicknesses in the plate on how it stands now.


And here it's how I'm gonna plan to planish it


I guess this is gonna be a blank for a helm, so the front and the top has to be thicker than the sides, the back and the bottom.

This afternoon I will try to thin it to the desired thickness with a striker, since it's tricky to work alone with the powerhammer and that's how it was done back in the day, I presume.

There's the album with all the pictures of the process: http://imgur.com/a/vVmW1

C&C welcome!

Gusto,

It may seem quiet, but I'm pretty sure we're all watching you.

Mac

Mac wrote:Gusto,

It may seem quiet, but I'm pretty sure we're all watching you.

Mac

this:)

Yes, we are watching.

I am very interested in the "start with an ingot like thing" and build armour. I have been playing a little bit with very small versions of the idea, not starting with an ingot, but starting with oddly shaped pieces an drawing out the relevant areas to make a shape and leave metal where I want it. I haven't gone very far, but I do have some little test pieces.

Since you are starting with "lumps" it really should be possible to make some very un-even "blanks" to work from. Given what other experiments show, I expect a helmet or a breastplate should start from something that is pretty thick in the middle and much thinner around the edges. I took 1/8" - app. 3 MM material and thinned it to app. 1/5 mm around the sides, then beat it on a flat anvil with a rounded hammer to create the depth of the breastplate. The result was much more authentic. The edges were thin, the center thicker. I would have preferred to use 6mm material, but I used what I had lying around.

I have also experimented with intentionally drawing out the rough form to achieve the shape I want for the piece. Just because you start square doesn't mean you can't end up with something oval, or more breastplate shaped.

You can see my crude breastplate experiment here:

http://www.allenantiques.com/DishedBreastplate.html

I never finished it.... Maybe someday.

That piece was formed 90% or more in my power hammer. I expect that you could get pretty far in it if you try. I do have custom hammer heads, one a cross pien for drawing out the material, the other a rounded one for "squashing" out the depth.

I have played a little with a couple of knees and an elbow this way too. I don't think I have the idea quite right yet, but I think I could make it work.

I wouldn't worry about the power hammer. If it works, use it. There were power hammers available to work metal, and they could get reliable strikers more easily and cheaply than we can.

Wade

Mac wrote:Gusto,

It may seem quiet, but I'm pretty sure we're all watching you.

Mac

Yes we are watching and eagerly awaiting your progress reports.
Between this and Tableau's thread (Experimental helmet forging) lots of exciting stuff is happening.

Thanks for the support folks!

So, progress is slow but steady.

On Saturday with a helper I tried to thin the back out and planish the plate a little bit. This was the result



(can't understand much, I forgot to take note of the thicknesses, my bad =) )

And this is today's work.



As you can imagine, the thickest part is supposed to be the front.

Weight now is 2,25 Kg (started as 2,55) and it's 28x25cm (broadest and narrowest part).

Wadya think, should I start dish it a little bit? To thin it and stretch it more?

How are you heating this?
How long does it hold the heat compared to thin sheet steel?

Using a coal forge. It takes something like a couple of minutes. And the heat goes off pretty fast too, especially on the thin areas.
But the fact that you have thicker material elsewhere helps on holding the heat a little bit more.

Gustovic! What a great project! I somehow missed the resurrection of this thread until Tom pointed it out to me. I'm very excited to see how it turns out. Do you have a type of helmet in mind for the finished project?

I don't really know. I don't think there will be enough material for a full sized helmet. Maybe a short bascinet or a sallet. O a cervelliere or something. We will see =).

Considering how thin you could stretch the edges of the blank I think you could make a bascinet out of it, the weight is there. You just have to think where you want to put the metal. If I was in your pants, I would dish the bowl to the appropriate size, and then draw the edges down until the bowl is deep enough. I know that is easier to say than to do, but to stop and make a cervelliere you will always have time. Trying to draw the edge as far as you can will cost you time but I don't think you will ruin the piece.

So another day, another update (let's see if I can keep this pace).

Thinned the edges and started dishing.

Edges thinned


And the plate as it stood before dishing. Size is 30x26cm and weights 2,2 Kg.

(actually pretty satisfied with the thickness distribution)

And then the dishing started. Kind of a pain in the ass. It started curving only in one direction, I guess due to the thickness difference.



Then I had to start thinking on the actual helmet itself. Given the size of the blank, I thought for going for an armet skull (no idea whatsoever if it's gonna come out, but at least I have a starting point).

So here are the thicknesses before and after some more shaping. Weight is 2,15 Kg.


And after



Varsågod!

After initial dishing, are you going to go to raising?

What are you using to measure your thickness?

Yeas, I'll be raising it, although I never tied to raise a piece this large and thick.

For measuring I use these http://www.axner.com/ProductImages/tool ... 8_inch.jpg

I think it's too thick for an armet skull, you could easily dish it deeper and raise only to achieve the final shape, don't be afraid to keep it easy.
Keeps us updated.
Cheers

Gusto,

I wonder if it is not time to start trimming the blank down a bit. Extra metal is insurance, but it comes at a cost. If you are unwilling to cut right on your lines yet, perhaps you might reduce the extra to about an inch (25mm.) beyond.

Mac

Started shaping the thing a little bit. I doubt that I will eventually manage to make something out of the blank. But still I'm very satisfied with the overall result so far.




A little bit of raising along the way (still very bat at it, though)



Thicknesses as they stand now.


All the edges on the front are still 3mm or more. Will make them thinner tomorrow.
Front left

Front right

Left side


Now I that I have something that resembles a helm blank, I can give you the rough measurements so you can kinda get the idea of its size.

Ear to ear: 25,3cm
Front to back: 30cm
Weight: 2,10Kg

It will stay looking uninspiring and misshapen for a while yet, but you're doing it right. Deep raising from flat metal spends most of the process looking as awful as a homemade volcano that hasn't stopped erupting.

Only late in the process does it start looking roughly -- and that's the word -- like a helmet.

Theoretically, raising a piece down upon stakes should thicken the edges up some by the time it's done. You've hammered out a thinning-out around the edges, and you may see some thickness come back.

Quick update, without images.

Started raising to give it a more definite shape. Didn't work well. At the end of 3.5 hours I dished it all back and so I am at yesterday's point again.

But now at least I know where NOT to raise and such.

Update.

Right now it's kinda of a down-period and I really need feedback. But I'm still working on the helm.

Now I feel like it's time to trim the thing a little bit, perhaps cutting off the edges.

What do you think? (sorry for the crappy pictures)

Front right


Front left


Front


Left side


Back left

Mac wrote:Gusto,

I wonder if it is not time to start trimming the blank down a bit. Extra metal is insurance, but it comes at a cost. If you are unwilling to cut right on your lines yet, perhaps you might reduce the extra to about an inch (25mm.) beyond.

Mac

When raising, the farther the metal is from the center, the more work it takes to push it down. Trim away everything you are sure you won't need.

What sort of helmet are you hoping to make?

Mac

Really don't know.

Maybe a small bascinet, or a conical helmet. I really have no idea how big is gonna be in the end.

And to be perfectly honest, don't really fully understand yet the mechanics of raising. This is an experiment on 360 degrees =).

In that case, I recommend you set your hard-won blank aside for a while and spend some time understanding raising on some cheap pieces of modern rolled sheet.

Cut yourself a few 300mm disks of 1.5 or 2mm steel and start playing with them. Don't expect them to end up anything in particular. Perhaps they will become shield bosses, or cerveliers, or steel yarmulkes... it doesn't matter.... the important thing is to learn to raise.

Mac