First Helmet Tips

This forum is designed to help us spread the knowledge of armouring.
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

Woah, I accidentally clicked out and lost all of my text..... Let me try to remember what I put..

Alright here we go,

Would you say plate armour adds more protection and is safer used, even in SCA, then splint armour w/ leather?

It looks like Keegan is really taking on a big project. It looks awesome, I've always liked the Bascinet a lot. If I tried that I'd probably waste 8 sheets of 24x24 steel and be broke! lol!

For now I think I'll try to do chainmail from the bottom of my great helm as a starter or maybe a mail coif.. Can you tell me anything about these "rags" i see wrapped around the outside of a great helm? Is that historically accurate?

Image

Is this a mail coif or actually riveted into the helmet?

Image

Image

Thanks for the response Ernst, I appreciate it! I'm thinking a jupon might be the best route for myself (that's with splint armour inside, right?). I always get them confused..

You mentioned roundels. Are those typical elbow plates?

I have seen these on both arms and legs, what do they do keep the mail held in place so all the weight isn't on your forearms/ feet?
Image

I've always been a big fan of concept art; while not usually historical they look pretty awesome... Was scale mail ever used like this? I'm a huge fan of the different shaped scale mails. Also for his kit would you call that a surcoat?

Image

Thanks!
User avatar
Keegan Ingrassia
Archive Member
Posts: 6424
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:07 pm
Location: College Station, Texas (Shadowlands)

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

Whoo, lots of questions. Lesse...

As to plate armor being more protective than splint. Absolutely. Moving through the 14th century from one end to another, you can actually see the evolution from full mail to full plate. A medieval arms race, also spurred on by the ability to successfully make larger and stronger pieces of metal. In the SCA, either will protect you well enough from blunt force (with the recommended padding/padded garment underneath it). In broad generalities, well-made plate will absorb more of the blow than well-made splint. This is because the larger metal is better able to spread the force of the blow over a larger area of your body, dispersing the impact. Granted, well-made splinted armor usually overlaps the smaller plates, which helps form a broad network of plates that rely on one another to disperse the impact.

The rags are called a Torse and Mantle. We actually had a discussion recently on how historically accurate they were. A search for those terms should pull it up.

The mail sticking out from underneath the great helm is a separate coif. Historically, there was actually a second helmet underneath the great helm. A sort of proto-bascinet called a...Cervelliere, I believe. Initially, is was nothing more than a glorified steel skull-cap, worn over the coif and under the great helm. It gradually evolved into the stand-alone bascinet.

That third image, the great helm with the dagged mail hanging off the bottom edge, is of debatable provenance. General consensus (if I recall correctly) is the mail is a later Victorian addition, as they were wont to do.

Roundels were an early to mid 14th century piece of armor. They were pointed to the outside face of the elbows and knees. These were eventually replaced with integrated fans on the side of elbow and knee cops.

The leather straps? Yeah, they're to help keep the mail in place, to keep it tighter to the body so you have less momentum to fight, and to keep slack in places you need it (around the joints) instead of gathering where it's not as useful (bunched around the ankle and wrist).

Not quite sure on the accuracy of lacing mail like that. Provides way too many gaps that could just as easily have been closed up. As to what he's wearing, it's more likely a tabard. Tabards are open on each side, basically a rectangular sheet with a hole for the head. Surcoats are more fitted, and are either sewn shut on the sides, or they lace up for a very tight fit. These were popular in the later third of the 14th century.
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
User avatar
Ernst
Archive Member
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Jackson,MS USA

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Ernst »

I think Keegan hit all your major questions pretty well. To clarify, the mantle (big piece of cloth) is accurate when used with a crest around 1300, while the torse (twisted ring of two colors) isn't in use until after 1400. A jupon probably didn't contain any solid defenses like splints at all. We're not always sure what they meant by certain words, and a jupon might have been only a cloth covering, or a quilted cloth coat. The Kornburg helm has the painted cross and attached mail, neither of which was original, but both added centuries after the helm was made for wearing--when it had been turned into a display piece. Roundels are, as the name suggests, simple round plates. While these were in use around 1300, they alone don't offer enough coverage of the joint to meet SCA requirements. You can use them to look accurate, and add hidden supplemental defenses to be safe.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

Thanks for the input guys

I'm not exactly sure what the SCA looks for in armour so does it all have to be historically accurate as possible and then pass their inspection process for safety? Or could you wear anything fantasy related? Non-Historical?

I'm tempted to try this scale mail out, it'd probably cost me a lot more money but it looks very interesting to the eye.

The torse and mantle is a pretty nice addition to the pembridge.. I kind of wish I built a pembridge instead of the one from the amour archive. Maybe I'll put the cross in steel since I'm not a big fan of brass on the great helms or I guess I could just add a nose piece riveted on.

What do you guys think of this? Accuracy or just someone's interpretation?

http://www.fleurdelis.com/symbolism_ABC.htm
User avatar
Keegan Ingrassia
Archive Member
Posts: 6424
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:07 pm
Location: College Station, Texas (Shadowlands)

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

The SCA has a very extensive set of guidelines for making armor and weapons.
www.sca.org/officers/marshal/docs/marshal_handbook.pdf

The SCA is also a group focused on recreating history. The full statement reads: "The Society for Creative Anachronism is an international organization dedicated to researching and re-creating the arts and skills of pre-17th-century Europe." Our success in that aspect varies wildly between groups and individuals. Here on the Archive, we try to persuade people to aim for the historically accurate for a couple reasons. For one thing, they designed and built this stuff when lives depended on it. Historical armor works and does not injure the wearer, two things that many fantasy armorers fall short of.
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

Good point!

Likely I'll keep my fantasy aspects to decorative pieces then but maybe if I ever get crazy designs like Ugo and just add a lot of sculpture/ faces to the armour I bet that could pass the SCA regulations?

I might be thinking of the "Armored Combat League" or whatever you call it where they beat eachother over the head until someone falls down. It might be that one that has very rigorous requirements but you're allowed to be as fantasy as you want. Either way I'll do decorative pieces for that interest :)
Konstantin the Red
Archive Member
Posts: 26725
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Port Hueneme CA USA

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Konstantin the Red »

That's the spirit! Steel cross or even just a simple steel vertical bar -- get a little decorative on the ends of either one... you know -- fleury, bottony, moline. Heck, just a couple big, cut notches.

Unless you'd like to pitch that ventail plate up altogether and cut out another with a nasaloid extension going up between the sights... and repurpose the first ventail somewhere else, say cut down a little into a nape plate. No big change, so it's an easy add to a ventail.

What the SCA looks for in armor can be found in the Known World Handbook, and on the Weapons & Armour Standards on every Kingdom website somewhere, generally as a .pdf. We could recite it for you, but you'll know it better reading it for yourself.
I'm not exactly sure what the SCA looks for in armour so does it all have to be historically accurate as possible and then pass their inspection process for safety?
Other way around, safety then historicity. But the required additions may be and very often are hidden under something that's at least plausible from a little ways off. Some of us think it's a PITA; others look on it as a chance to be artful and ingenious -- like making what's really like a camail or mantle of mail somewhat look like a coif emerging from under a greathelm, but really being hung from a leather strip riveted to its inside bottom edge, and by that stood-out suspension, protect like bascinets' camails do, an inch or two off the neck -- spaced armor.

Summing up, there's a few smallish differences in the helmets and their details, barring bargrills (I see what I did there :P ), things like wider sights than the medieval models, chinstraps such as no medieval hat generally had, because we say a "snug fit" isn't an equivalent, and wearing what I call "safety gorgets" -- back then some helmets and helms didn't get accessorized with rigid throat coverage as far as we know, but we often do it ourselves, being much attached to breathing and to walking.

They didn't always have rigid protection covering the joints. We used not to ourselves -- just volleyball pads -- but we require it now. First such unperiodlike hardening-up was not the joints of the limbs, but hard stuff over the kidneys, after early SCAdian fighters got hit crossbody hard enough to piss blood. They knew from the beginning they wanted helms for their heads and cups for their nuts; kidneys they learned the hard way.

We hit hard with our sticks. We started with sawed-off hockey sticks -- and worried about their sharp shards when they broke. We found rattan: very tough, quite elastic (bends remarkably in hard strikes even in a 1-meter sword) and doesn't splinter in breaking. Truly, we've never found anything else quite as good, at any price. I'm acquainted with a couple of almost-as-goods, some of which other groups fashion into practice swords generally called "wasters." Nobody knows where the word comes from, nor why these syllables mean a practice sword made out of hard wood or other materials. But there we are. One material the Society accepts, after experiments, for certain limited practice uses, is rods of UHMW HDPE plastic: we use it for hitting fixed or wiggly pells (posts to beat up with weapons) to practice sword technique, sparing one's supply of rattan for use on live targets! Said targets express a strong preference for being hit with elastic, springy rattan, declaring this to be quite enough! The UHMW thuds into you like a sap or a deadblow hammer. It's like the quarterstaff problem: caves armor in, can't provide authentic handling without a hefty helping of authentic danger.

The idea behind this shit is to have fun, not test the abilities of the ER.

So, hitting full power with our tropical climbing-palm sticks, we require our striking edges, whether hard or of foam, to be 1 1/4" across. 33-35mm for our SI correspondents.

Since most of our weapon attacks are circular attacks, left and right hooks as it were, the hits of our weapons most commonly fall on our silhouette rather than our centerline where our vital organs cluster. A rib cage is actually a fairly good defense of vital organs against clubs. Who knew? So that's another SCA armor feature -- we need more on the edges and extremities of us than right in the gut. Kidneys aside, we tend to armor our limbs and shoulders well before getting to centerline protection, and some of us never do, except for our cups. Our heads, however, are always our best-armored spot, and our new fighters find they'd rather take a hit on the helm than anywhere else most of the time. (It also happens a lot until their shield arm grows stronger and more nimble.)

****************
http://www.fleurdelis.com/symbolism_ABC.htm

It's highly typical of those "family crest" mailorder services that were around before the Internet and abound all the more now.

If you'd like to have any of those mean anything to you, great! Designing arms to bear for yourself, you quite have that liberty. Having a charge on your Society Device (becomes your Arms when you get your Award of Arms and may style yourself "Lord", meanwhile you have your Device registered with and protected by the Society's Laurel King Of Arms and nobody else gets the same thing) that gives you a warm fuzzy inside, that's a good thing! It's certainly the thing I picked -- something that had resonance for me, reflected my creativity directly, and happens to be my sole claim to fame in the Society because in their search for practicing Medieval authenticity they don't nowadays pass graphics that have no example in middle-ages heraldry, artwork, or design. Though once they used to, and stuff that passed in those times is grandfathered now.

It's a sun symbol, really; I have a thing, an attraction, to designs that rotate and radiate. If I couldn't have had my charge that I did get to register, I would probably have designed something gyronny, which I am going to have you look up for yourself, instead of what I used, and which Laurel carefully blazoned to avoid mention of "fylfot" or "gammadion," possibly doing some violence to the design I submitted and which was approved long before they tightened the rules about what was acceptably medieval-style. Soooo... I get to use a green, five-legged, what they call a "pentaskelion," like a triskelion but with five legs not three, on a golden field with a barrulet across the middle horizontally, the pentaskelion set a little above it. Nobody else does, now. What I draw and paint is a 5-legged gammadion, occupying a regular pentagon. Thing looks like a buzz saw. Instead of a Nazi orientation, I put the feet the other way, so the symbol walks sunwise, not antisunwise Nazi style. (Black sun symbols turned backward -- spooky, huh? Quite a portent of calamity.)

But nothing in that handy little list has to mean what they say it does. That's a popular misinterpretation of genuine heraldry. So at the top of their list they post a little disclaimer; actually a pretty big one. Heraldry is graphics, not verbiage. It may salute your ideals, be a symbol or set of them for your noblest ideals, but it does not by rebus or word or off a list of pictures state them. If you adopt a motto, that might, and often did in mundane-world heraldry. Suggested a noble high-mindedness, you know -- something that was not necessarily the daily bread and butter of a military aristocracy in charge of doing war.

(Parenthetically, for the simplicity of avoiding pedantry: Revolutionary, Napoleonic France did propose and promulgate a systematized, rebus-like heraldry for the use of the more elevated of the citoyens of the empire -- an extreme version of the kind of thing that handy little list is. Bees all over your field said you were productive... stuff like that. It, ah, didn't get used.)

Arthur Charles Fox-Davies' century-old book available in inexpensive reprints, A Complete Guide To Heraldry, is engaging reading, entirely related to English and Scottish heraldic practice, and can steer you away from falling into what Fox-Davies called heraldry's "pleasant little insanities" that grew up in error, error perhaps too much ignored by Lyon and Garter Kings of Arms, busy with coat-armour and protecting copyrights, which is what most of the law around use of real-world heraldry resembles.
"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

Wooh! Mind blown for a second time!

I've had a couple ideas for a tabard... It's either going to be something to do with antlers (i like that look..), A cross of sorts, a crescent moon w/ acanthus leaves inside of it. Or a sun w/ acanthus leaves as the rays of the sun. I've got plenty of ideas..

You should post a picture of your gear you wear, as should everyone, I'm curious what everyone's kit looks like and what color schemes you guys like to use.

Do you have any scalemail type tutorials?
Konstantin the Red
Archive Member
Posts: 26725
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Port Hueneme CA USA

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Konstantin the Red »

Before he died young early this year, Effingham did some computer-graphics of the SCA arms of some of us for avatars. Keegan, for one.
User avatar
Keegan Ingrassia
Archive Member
Posts: 6424
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:07 pm
Location: College Station, Texas (Shadowlands)

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

Hm? No, I made my own. But Eff made pretty much every other good-looking avatar of arms.


Oh, critch, for pictures of people's kits, do a search for Show Us Your Kit 2014. There are also previous years.
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

Ok awesome I'll check that out. I just got down in my shop about to (hopefully) dish out these greathelm pieces without a planishing stake.. This should be fun!
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

Alright just looked. There's some pretty impressive kits lurking within this forum.. This is going to make mine look like a bad plastic halloween costume. Some really nice and creative taberds and surcoats!
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

I wanted to ask this as well. What is best to line a helmet with? leather or some newer style foam glue-gunned inside?

Also if I wanted to add fur on the shoulders/back of my kit for colder weather...Does anyone have a website which supplies furs for this sort of thing?
Konstantin the Red
Archive Member
Posts: 26725
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Port Hueneme CA USA

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Konstantin the Red »

Search-button the site on "period lining" and "suspension lining." Should bring up a lot to think over.

At least, those are among the best to actually fight in -- they ride cooler, use the right material and they wick sweat off, which foam rubber does not.
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

Noted.

I just discovered I'm having an extremely hard time drilling holes into my steel parts.. I think I'm going to be needing a hole punch. Roper Whitney? I need something inexpensive that can punch a variety of gauges. I know of a chinese knockoff on amazon but I'm unsure if that'll last me.
User avatar
Keegan Ingrassia
Archive Member
Posts: 6424
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:07 pm
Location: College Station, Texas (Shadowlands)

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

Harbor Freight used to sell a knockoff Roper, but they don't carry them anymore. Not for the last couple years, now. Oddly enough, Michael's art store has a knockoff in their jewelry making section. I can't attest to its quality, but it looks exactly like the HF version. For 40 bucks, not a bad investment.
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
User avatar
Ernst
Archive Member
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Jackson,MS USA

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Ernst »

Center punch your hole first. Use a bit designed for steel instead of wood or GP. Slow speed with a little machine oil, and don't push too much.

EDIT: Forgot to add, if you have a reversible drill, make sure it's turning in the right direction. :lol:
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

It's too bad HF doesn't sell it anymore because I'd probably buy it! I can't see spending close to $500 right now on the #16... But I'm wondering how the Roper Whitney #5 Jr would do? I'm not sure what gauge that can go up to but it says 1.2 tons?

Ernst, that's what I've been doing. Center hole punch + oil.. I don't think the drill bit will make a huge huge difference because it took me nearly 3-4 minutes to drill one hole through two sheets at the same time. The bits I have now are pretty nice.
Konstantin the Red
Archive Member
Posts: 26725
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Port Hueneme CA USA

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Konstantin the Red »

Yes, that R-W will do nicely for your 16ga mild. I've got one. 14ga you'd have to drill, or step up to the multi-hundred R-W No. 7A with about twice the tonnage of the No. 5 Jr. For now, drill.

Light duty and medium duty portable punches, you get what you pay for; save up. Same for drill bits. It's much less of a struggle to drill if first you drill a small pilot hole into that centerpunch dint, then go to the full diameter.
"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

So overall you think the hole punches are useless if you have a drill?
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

Step bit like this is the best for metals? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P4Fi_Hck5Y
User avatar
Keegan Ingrassia
Archive Member
Posts: 6424
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:07 pm
Location: College Station, Texas (Shadowlands)

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

Oh, not at all. Punches are glorious to use: the hole is knocked out instantly, and its clean. Hands-down the best tool for the job. But you have to make sure you don't try to punch a metal thicker than it can bear, or you risk blunting or cracking your punch dies. With the knockoff R-W 5 jr. (from Harbor Freight), I don't feel bad making it punch 14 (when its only rated to 16). However, I have managed to actually bend the frame of it, so take that as a word of warning.
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

There's some "grizzly" hole punch from amazon someone did a review on. That could be a cheap alternative.. The Roper Whitney is like $80-$90.

Supposedly this one punches up to 11 gauge but does not have a 3/16" punch size... Which could be a problem.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-D ... tand/H7862
User avatar
Keegan Ingrassia
Archive Member
Posts: 6424
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:07 pm
Location: College Station, Texas (Shadowlands)

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

Hey! This is the knockoff punch that Harbor Freight used to carry! Same paint and everything.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Portabl ... unch/G8780

That thing will do 16g. all day. The larger one, I don't have any experience with.
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

Hmm.. Maybe I'll just buy that one.. Unless the bigger "11 gauge" one can get a 3/16" bit. It's funny how grizzly and harbor freight are probably the same company lol!

Maybe with the bigger one I can punch smaller then 3/16" and drill to the right size..
Nicknizh
Archive Member
Posts: 243
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:33 pm
Contact:

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Nicknizh »

Punch is an excellent tool, since I bought it, I only use drill in two of the following situations:
1. when punch doesn't reach the place.
2. when I have to drill two plates simultaneously.
First situation is quite rare in my experience and second can be managed by punch in some cases.
User avatar
Ernst
Archive Member
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Jackson,MS USA

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Ernst »

Building a 5-piece great helm, you'll have a couple of triple overlaps at the junction of sides and top cap to rivet.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

Good points! I'm thinking about the grizzly one for starters. It says it can do the same tonnage as the whitney.. I'd like to get the whitney but I've been blowing through money like crazy lately :/
User avatar
Keegan Ingrassia
Archive Member
Posts: 6424
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:07 pm
Location: College Station, Texas (Shadowlands)

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

If you're going with the grizzly, get the heavier, table-top version. I can guarantee you that the handheld version will not do the same tonnage as the whitney. I have one, and can attest to that.
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

Alright. Supposedly the table top one says it can do 11 gauge.. But doesn't have a 3/16" bit. Kinda sucks.
Konstantin the Red
Archive Member
Posts: 26725
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Port Hueneme CA USA

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Konstantin the Red »

Shop around for a Grizzly-suitable 3/16" punch and die for the bigger model then. The punch would handle one so readily you wouldn't even notice. You'd actually be okay using the 7/32 punch -- that's a mere 1/64" rattle room either side of a 3/16" rivet, and one other cool thing: it's the perfect hole diameter for making articulated, moving joints with 3/16" rivets in plate -- just loose enough to turn on, but not sloppy. :) :D :) -- Snoopy-dance time!

Page says for parts (such as other sizes of die) email their tech people. "Purchase Parts" button tells you about it.

On a related note, the smaller the punch diameter the less of the punch's power it takes to make the hole. A metal punch can punch a smaller hole through thicker metal that it can't get through with its biggest punch. The more tons a punch can deliver, the bigger the holes it can punch, as well as being good for thicker metal. And they talk about this in their ad-blurbage on the page:
Punch sheet metal up to 11 gauge (with the 5/32" die)
-- unraveled a bit, what they are saying in a rather evasive way is that you can punch 11ga with the smallest punch in the set. Nothing bigger, though -- too hard. You might really rather consider the biggest end of the punch set and what thickness that one can be punched through as the rated capability of that punch -- something more modest than the 11 gauge mild sheet. Prolly devours 16ga! Just don't expect to chew through a lot of 11ga at any point... seldom if ever go beyond 14 and that'll keep your punch healthy.

Yeah, the knockoffs have a worse weak spot than the R-W #5 Jr, their frames being softer. In that type of punch, the frame is likeliest the weaker link. Even a quality punch like the R-W can get its frame bent to out of specification -- it just takes more and worse to do that to it, compared to the Grizzly knockoff. The more powerful model would have the bigger safety margin.
"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

Alright then, I'll have to get the bench mounted Grizz! It's settle.. As long as my wiggle room for the rivets isn't super noticeable I won't care as much :)
Konstantin the Red
Archive Member
Posts: 26725
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Port Hueneme CA USA

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Konstantin the Red »

Just upset them real good.

Here's a handy chart for tons needed to punch a given hole through a given thickness of mild:

http://www.americanmachinetools.com/ton ... h_hole.htm

From this chart, it looks like the bench-model Grizzly is claimed to deliver 2 to 2.5 tons, the latter figure being optimistic. The chart also shows that factoring everything together, it will drive its biggest punch through 16 gauge no problem and through 14ga, anything up to 3/8", maybe 7/16". (Stainless, as a rule, go two gauge numbers thinner.)

A little further down on that page, we can see that 11ga is .120"/3mm. Easier data to understand...
"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."
critch
Archive Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by critch »

Ah cool! Well I'm gonna get that grizzly hopefully this week. I've never heard of the brand so I guess I'll do a review once I get one lol!
Konstantin the Red
Archive Member
Posts: 26725
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Port Hueneme CA USA

Re: First Helmet Tips

Post by Konstantin the Red »

At least you don't have to do that hammer/spike/file the dimple pimple routine!

I might try it, though, someday to see what it's like. Coming up with a suitable hard-steel spike might be something of a trick -- either whack the hell out of a large center-punch or some big drift pin thing (the likeliest tool to modify this way, grind a bit of a point on it) or a length of drill rod with a point ground on it...
Post Reply