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James Arlen Gillaspie · Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:06 pm

Recently some EXTREMELY

fine mail came in for repairs. I have posted some photos in the 'Authentic mail pictures' thread over on myarmoury.com, where I can post some decent sized pic's.

Here is a teaser.

Keegan Ingrassia · Post by **Keegan Ingrassia** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:16 pm

Good grief. I've made mail that size, but with butted links. The thought of riveting at that size...

I bet it moves like heavy silk. Gorgeous feeling.

James Arlen Gillaspie · Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:37 pm

Yup. Utterly fluid and soundless.

Knight Sir James · Post by **Knight Sir James** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:29 pm

That's historical mail, not repro? Wow it's tiny!

coreythompsonhm · Post by **coreythompsonhm** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:49 pm

Talk about labor hours....

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:19 pm

Magic Elvin mail.
Thanks for the pic.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:05 pm

Putting calipers to screen, and doing a little division, it looks like James rings are right around 4 mm outer diameter. The larger AZON welded mail is .210" / 5.33 mm.

Smilingotter · Post by **Smilingotter** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:19 pm

I'm just going to choose to believe that the penny is HUGE.

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:30 pm

Thanks for sharing! Incredible! I'd seen small links, but never that small.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:01 pm

You may wish to consider www.imgur.com. Free image hosting, you don't even have to sign up for an account. Then just post the URL.

Steve

worldantiques · Post by **worldantiques** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:16 pm

Steve S. wrote:You may wish to consider http://www.imgur.com. Free image hosting, you don't even have to sign up for an account. Then just post the URL.

Steve

Pinterest is free and they let you keep your images in categories, they allow huge ass images to be uploaded and you can add text to the image, I have Photobucket, Flicker, etc and Pinterest is all I use now. http://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/ ... ail-armor/

Signo · Post by **Signo** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:12 am

This work is more like jewelry than blacksmithing.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:53 am

Pinterest is free and they let you keep your images in categories...

Do you have to sign up to upload images to Pinterest?

Steve

Keegan Ingrassia · Post by **Keegan Ingrassia** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:04 am

Steve S. wrote:
Pinterest is free and they let you keep your images in categories...
Do you have to sign up to upload images to Pinterest?

Steve

Yeah, just an email and password, like most online accounts...

The Iron-Clad Artisan · Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:11 am

That is glorious.... Where can I get rings that small???

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:00 am

From wire and a dowel.

Ckanite · Post by **Ckanite** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:35 am

A really small dowel... I would HATE to have to make some that small... I wonder what the properties of mail that small are...

Keegan Ingrassia · Post by **Keegan Ingrassia** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:57 am

Ckanite wrote:I wonder what the properties of mail that small are...

Flows effortlessly, like a very heavy silk. Extremely quiet. Contours to the body much finer, and adds very little bulk to the overall thickness. I can't speak to the penetrative properties of riveted mail at that size...I know that a sharpened pencil couldn't be felt through butted links. The general density of metal at this size absorbs a surprising amount of blunt force, too. More than you would expect from jewelry-sized rings.

Ckanite · Post by **Ckanite** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:04 am

Why is it so quiet?

Keegan Ingrassia · Post by **Keegan Ingrassia** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:11 am

Same reason that a chain big enough to haul a truck clanks, but the wife's silver bracelet barely tinkles, I suppose. Less rigid material to resonate through, more points of contact to bleed off the vibration before it can reach a high amplitude.

coreythompsonhm · Post by **coreythompsonhm** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:51 am

More like wrapping a really thin wire around thicker wire to make the coils. I would not like cutting those apart.

Alex Baird · Post by **Alex Baird** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:18 pm

Smilingotter wrote:I'm just going to choose to believe that the penny is HUGE.

For those not familiar with US coin size, a penny is .75 in., or just over 19mm.

white mountain armoury · Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:39 pm

I have a little scrap of some that small, amazing stuff realy

Galileo · Post by **Galileo** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:19 pm

Pinterest is blocked from work. I can see the other photo servers though.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:51 pm

Awful lot of awesome there. Wouldn't have believed it til I saw it.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:14 pm

James,

What sort of rivets do those rings have? Can you show us a pic of the backs?

Are you making repairs on this mail? If so, what gauge wire and what size mandrel at you using?

Mac

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:05 am

Of rival size, plus having the complication of interwoven scales, is the Roman lorica hamata squamataque (mail and scale armor) -- H. R. Robinson's "plumata". Here's the Newstead find:

Ckanite · Post by **Ckanite** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:28 am

Proof that O.C.D. and A.H.D. are not new to this world...

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:49 am

James, can you corroborate something here?
The appearance of the small rings makes it look like they were made the way repros are made today, by just smashing the whole ring at once. The overlaps look very similar to the Indian stuff.
The other larger maille I've seen looks like the craftsman was intentionally trying to flatten only the overlap, since some of them have triangular or other weird cross sections through the rest of the ring, meaning that they couldn't have been just bashing it all flat.

James Arlen Gillaspie · Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:56 pm

Mac asked;

What sort of rivets do those rings have? Can you show us a pic of the backs?

Are you making repairs on this mail? If so, what gauge wire and what size mandrel at you using?

What, who, me?!

I'm intending to hand it over to John Carlson, my 'mail man', the best mail smith that most of you have never heard of. I prefer to wear as few hats as possible, though I want to know as much as I can about how things are done - just in case a hat falls out of the sky and sticks to my head, which happens all too often.

Check out the new pic's over on My Armoury. VERY interesting.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:37 pm

Wedge rivets, I see. I suspected as much, but the thought of handling such tiny wedges very sobering.

Is your mail-guy going to do the repairs with riveted rings? If so, may we see a pic of his work when he is done.

Mac

Ckanite · Post by **Ckanite** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:54 pm

How do you even make wedge rivets that small...

Keegan Ingrassia · Post by **Keegan Ingrassia** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:55 pm

Ckanite wrote:How do you even make wedge rivets that small...

Sweep up the dust from filing?

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:11 pm

Ckanite wrote:How do you even make wedge rivets that small...

I would...
--flatten a wee little wire until it was a suitable thickness
--chisel-cut it or file it to a point
--make a notch in the flat wire at the point where the rivet was to end
--using the rest of the wire as a handle, insert the pointed end into the slot in the ring
--break off the wire/handle by bending it back and forth
--apply the rivet closing tool to the joint
--re-point the wire
--repeat

The oft-cited but usually misunderstood rolling mill in the Breughel "Venus at the forge of Vulcan" would be very well suited to turning drawn wire into rivet stock.

Mac

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:11 pm

Mac, that's pretty much the easiest way to do historical pin rivet. Pinch the end of the wire into a point. Insert into hole. Clip wire at base of ring with pincers, and crimp shut. I think there is growing reason to believe the rivets are harder than the ring rather than annealed soft.

Schreiber,
It looks to me like the wire is fairly round sectioned, though some flattening is noticeable on the 1/3 of the ring near the overlap. There also appears to be some watershed around the rivet, which is not surprising on a German Bishop's Mantle.

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