Experimental helmet forging

[Mac]

I see a bascinet and a sallet.



I look forward to seeing how these come out!

Mac

[RandallMoffett]

I'm with Gustovic! Those are turning out awesome and as Mac said I see a nice one piece sallet with integral visor starting there on the left and a bascinet. You really are starting to make good time one these!

I love the hammers name! very fitting!

RPM

[Tableau]

Thanks guys

I once again got caught up in working on the shop these last couple weeks. On the plus side, things are coming along real well in that department, but on the down side it’s taken a lot of time from this project ):

Got back to it yesterday. I raised these as far as I could with my 8 inch chambers which are terrible for the purpose, then I switched to oxy/propane which was approximately 100x better. Maybe I’ll eventually make some 4” chambers for the forge to handle rough raising, but either way I’m definitely getting bigger oxygen tanks. Here’s where I got before running out of oxygen



Luckily i had the foresight to cut out a couple more 9” disks in 1/2 before hand. Last time I drew them out into basically a lenticular cross section. This time I was going for a bit more of a fried egg cross section, with a little more mass concentrated in the middle and a little less on the sides. I’m hoping that will mean less raising in the end. This flats are just over 12” like last time

[Tableau]

Got a bit more work done today



Shop got a little hot



Looks like I’ve got to go back to work next Monday so it looks like my time to work on this stuff is going to be limited for a bit ):

[Kristoffer]

Damn, now you have to invest in a new gas saver.

[Armadillo]

For all the cool experimentation this guy is doing, I want to buy him a gas saver and a Nazel 4b to push that plate around faster.
-A.

[Tableau]

For all the cool experimentation this guy is doing, I want to buy him a gas saver and a Nazel 4b to push that plate around faster.
-A.

And I’m very open to that idea lol. I’ve been thinking that a 25ton Anyang press might be a realistic option to help in that department

[Tableau]

So Kevin Legg pointed out on Facebook that my sallet is too short and I had to dive back into my design process and get to the bottom of it.

My design process has been pretty sloppy so far, since my main focus has been getting a good bucket, with the actual armouring part being a secondary concern. Basically, I made some drawings of my head that match the real measurements and each other, and then I just traced the helmets on using some printed photos that just happened to be about the right size.





https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/21984

Of course the helmet drawings don’t really reconcile with each other at the top, but I figured it would be close enough for my purposes, which were mostly to get some guiding measurements. Anyway, the Mets website lists the dimensions as 11.5” tall, 9.75” wide and 14.625” long (assuming they got the hieght and width mixed up which checks out proportionally) and my drawings suggest something more like 9.5” tall, 8.125” wide and 12.6” long. My actual helmet is basically at those dimensions except that it’s a little long and I feel like I could push the crest up a bit higher.

So I messed that up. Should I just go ahead with it and finish it as a scaled down version and sell it to someone with a tiny head? Or was the original made for someone with a giant head?

[Armadillo]

By the way, as great as it would be to see that sallet form completed, it is very evocative of process and materiality in its current state. I'd be inclined to keep it around as-is both as a sculptural piece and as an educational tool That style of helmet more than any other seems to have evolved directly from the presumed manner of forming deep vessels.
-Adair

[Mac]

Oh yea... Kevin is right.... this is too short from front to back. The important thing is that the crest line will make the spacing along the mid-sagittal plane look huge. That's just a thing to be gotten used to in planning. You will need volume that crest provides in teh front to make room for you nose. Oh, and it just looks cool that way.

Mac

[Tableau]

Hmm yup that’s it exactly mac. I’ve only just started to make the forehead and back of the skull properly pointy, and it’s already getting too tight to my skull at those points.


I’m sort of leaning to the scale model of the finished piece myself. I feel like it would complete the dramatic effect of the before and after. Plus I was looking forward to making the twisty rivets

[Mac]

I’m sort of leaning to the scale model of the finished piece myself. I feel like it would complete the dramatic effect of the before and after. Plus I was looking forward to making the twisty rivets

It's going to be a really nice helmet for some lucky kid!

Mac

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

The height and width of the Met Schaller are not mixed up.

[Tableau]

The height and width of the Met Schaller are not mixed up.

But from the front it’s taller than it is wide, not the other way around

[Armadillo]

Hi Tableau,
Your recent progress has inspired me again to win some shop time (I'm supposed to be building my wife's office, don't tell her I'm goofing around). Attached are some photos of the clearances I have to work with after removing the sow block from my power hammer. I've mocked up the scale of the pillar die that I am machining for the sake of the photo. It will be about 2-1/4" dia. Any thoughts on the configuration? I have about the same clearance with the die top or bottom. I'm accustomed to the forming head on the bottom so that is where I will start.
-Adair

[Tableau]

Hi Tableau,
Your recent progress has inspired me again to win some shop time (I'm supposed to be building my wife's office, don't tell her I'm goofing around). Attached are some photos of the clearances I have to work with after removing the sow block from my power hammer. I've mocked up the scale of the pillar die that I am machining for the sake of the photo. It will be about 2-1/4" dia. Any thoughts on the configuration? I have about the same clearance with the die top or bottom. I'm accustomed to the forming head on the bottom so that is where I will start.
-Adair

Interesting setup. I wouldn’t have thought you’d be able to get much out of a little giant for this kind of stuff, but that looks super plausible. Did you machine a dove tail on that bottom doe, or fab something up?

I don’t know if you already have plans to, but I would definitely modify that lower die face.

I’m excited to see how this turns out!

[Tableau]

More squashing



9” deep, sitting about .11” for most of it, a tad thicker on top

I also picked up a bunch of oxygen this week so hopefully next week I’ll get to finish up the raising on the last two

Just for fun, here’s all the bucket experiments I have on hand at the moment

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Golly! I kept switching the height and width of the Met example every time I looked at it! And I looked at it several times. That is really disturbing.

[Armadillo]

Thanks Tableau,
I'm having a new sow block machined from ductile iron. The attached drawing shows a comparison side view of the original sow block and what I am making. Combined with raising the ram to the top of the pitman, I hope to have enough clearance to try much of what you are up to. What you saw in the previous photo was just a mock-up of cut offs from the scrap pile.

[Tableau]

Very cool. It looks like your depth will ultimately be limited by the frame of the hammer. Looks like that setup could get you a long way though

[Armadillo]

I think it will be worth a try. The machining is going to cost, but I can use this for other forging applications.
I'll quick hijacking your thread now, but I appreciate your input.
-Adair

[Tableau]

For anyone who’s interested, I’m auctioning off some prototypes over on the other side here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=188378

[Tableau]

I think it will be worth a try. The machining is going to cost, but I can use this for other forging applications.
I'll quick hijacking your thread now, but I appreciate your input.
-Adair

No by all means; that’s what this thread is all about

[Tableau]

Made some progress on the bascinet. I decided my best bet would be this one in the Royal Armouries. If the dimensions they give are correct, it's fairly short at around 10" deep. I got this thing down to 10 1/4", so I should have a little wiggle room, but I can't get that number to reconcile with my sketch. As drawn, the helmet in the sketch is 11.6" deep and still looks a little snug.

My drawing is, as usual, a super quick tracing of a photo onto my standard profile. I didn't bother getting it exactly in place since I really just needed to be in the ballpark to be able to pull measurements. I wonder if the one in leeds is just for a guy with a small head. Although the helmet does seem to fit my head fairly well. Sorry, just thinking out loud here

Maybe I could get the sketch to work out if I shrank the helmet and rotated it forward a bit.





The shaping needs to be refined a bit, but hopefully I can still do a lot of that from the inside. Feedback on shape would be welcome!

[Mac]

The pics are not showing on my computer. Are your privacy settings in need of adjustment?

Mac

[Tableau]

Hmm yes very probably. I put them on google photos for a change. lets see if I can fix that

how about now?

[Gustovic]

Cool project!

But remember that the visor doesn't really fit the skull. To me it seems that the visor needs to be pulled down a few millimeters at least.

[Mac]

Hmm yes very probably. I put them on google photos for a change. lets see if I can fix that

how about now?

The pics are visible now.

Mac

[Mac]

The shape seems Ok, but it looks like you have drawn it too close fitting at the brow and the lower back.

Don't cut those white lines! You probably want to get the helmet higher on your head, and you'll need the material when you do that.

Mac

[Tableau]

Cool project!

But remember that the visor doesn't really fit the skull. To me it seems that the visor needs to be pulled down a few millimeters at least.

Okay, good tip. I gathered a bunch of reference for central hinged visors and this one seems like a super common type so I figured probably ok. Definitely gotta work on getting everything to fit right.

The shape seems Ok, but it looks like you have drawn it too close fitting at the brow and the lower back.

Don't cut those white lines! You probably want to get the helmet higher on your head, and you'll need the material when you do that.

Yeah, I'm not sure what those white lines are about to be honest. I was worried I'd cut the face opening too big as it is.

I was also worried about the forehead and nape of the neck areas. Clearly its much too flat at the back. Do you think pushing that out rounder will give me enough room there? Also it looks like I can trim a bunch more off the back to have the neckline sweep up at a steeper angle.

As for the forehead, I was thinking I need to squish that sort of flat looking section to the front of the point a little deeper. I figure that would improve the shape and maybe give me some more wiggle room to add a bit of volume at the forehead

edit: I see know you were talking about my drawing. Yes I 100% agree, its too tight in those spots, but also it's much too tall already so that's the issue I was hoping to change by shrinking the whole helmet and rotating it forward.

Come to think of it, I brought all my sketching stuff home this week. Maybe if the spirit strikes me I'll mess with that today and see if I can make it work

[Mac]

Cutting the neck line up higher in back sounds right, but I think I'd like to see the helmet on your head to get a sense of it.

Mac

[Tableau]

Cool project!

But remember that the visor doesn't really fit the skull. To me it seems that the visor needs to be pulled down a few millimeters at least.

Taking a close look, it seems like the royal armouries website shows this helmet with the visor attached in two different ways, depending on the photo. I looks like at some point they had the visors hinge plate attached to the skull with a rivet through the highest hole in the skull, and then at some point they changed it to be riveted through the second highest hole in the skull. Or vise versa.

My sketch was traced from the higher mounted version. I would think somewhere in the middle would be correct. In any case, I was planning on ignoring the whole hinge plate setup since it looks badly mangled

[Mac]

I would be inclined to treat the helmet skull and the visor as separate things. First make the skull fit properly, then make the visor be in the right place.

Mac

[Tableau]

I would be inclined to treat the helmet skull and the visor as separate things. First make the skull fit properly, then make the visor be in the right place.

Mac

I spent a few minutes just now trying to work things out while treating them as a unit, and quickly realized how badly that was going for me :p

Turns out not only did I bring my sketching stuff, I also have the actual helmet on me. Who'd have thought





I had some trouble taking a good profile photo, and it looks like my angle was a bit high, making the helmet look like it comes down a little farther than it does. You can see in the front view that the cheeks don't quite come down far enough.

As for the height, I had trouble interpreting the measurements from the royal armouries. At first I was using the measurment they list as height, but I think I should be using the one they list as depth, which is about a half inch bigger. If that's correct, my helmet is pretty close to that now, and I could squeeze out a little more depth without much problem. I'm thinking my drawing just has the skull too tall, and if I shorten that I might be closer to the real thing.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

It is a common misconception that helmet skulls should be equidistant from the head of the wearer. They tend to have a lot of crush space in the top, something missing in most modern pieces. I don't see anything wrong with your drawing.