Phillip II's bifurcated gauntlets. How do the fingers work?

[Armourkris]

I'm trying to figure out how the fingers on these are articulated.


Here is an album of the photos I've found of them so far.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/74293956@ ... 495768380/

Looking at them what i see is rivets on the outsides of the fingers and leathers down the insides. The problem is i don't see how that actually works when you're dealing with gauntlet fingers. if the plates hinge on the leathers then the rivets stop the edges from compressing and allowing the finger plates to curl up. If it's articulated on the rivets then the leather stops the opposite edge from expanding. Maybe if the rivets are sliding? but even then i think that the slots would have to be long enough that it would be peeking out somewhere.

the easiest explanation to me is that it runs on the leathers and that the rivets are just decorative, filling in holes from when it was constructed, but if that's the case i don't see how the fingers would sit so tightly together, They certainly look like those rivets are functional.

has anyone seen the inside of these or some similar gauntlets? got any ideas I'm missing out on?

[wcallen]

Looking at the inside picture, you can see that the leather only covers one finger of space. The outer finger is not covered by leather.

This works better than you would expect.

The thing that we need to remember is that the leather they were using was very flexible. It will fold back on itself, and if it is like the buff I have played with it is slightly springy.

I expect (and looking at the inner picture it appears to be confirmed, though that is likely replaced leather) that the fully extended leather isn't put in with the fingers collapsed. It is put in with the fingers most of the way extended. Then the leather bends back when it needs to and the side rivets will rotate just fine. It is also possible that there are sliders. They are common in late 15th and very early 16th c. gauntlets, but they disappear pretty soon into the 16th c. on normal gauntlets. These aren't normal. You can see the kooky movements possible in a normal gauntlet with sliders in this video.

http://www.allenantiques.com/movies/Gau ... vement.mp4

I expect that these could move in really cool ways.

Wade

[Mac]

AK,

The rivets on the edges are in all regards normal. They may or may not have short slots; they will work either way.

Have you have a good working knowledge of how a normal mitten articulates? If not, it's time to spend some time with your notebook, a compass, and some cardboard lame profiles. This will not be time wasted.

The secrete is that when the fingers are extended, the underlapping edges of the lames intrude quite a bit into the "living space" of the gauntlet. By contrast, when the fingers are flexed, the underlaps swing into contact with the lame above and the inside gets smooth. That effect is what will allow the leathers to do what they must. While the "reveal" of each lame becomes greater as the mitten is flexed, the distance from from one underlaping edge to the next changes very little. A leather that's the right length in the extended position will still be the right length in the flexed position, and everywhere in between as well.

The pic which shows the inside of the gauntlet lets you see what the leather looks like when the fingers are almost fully extended. https://www.flickr.com/photos/74293956@ ... 8495768380 Note the sort of "stair step" look to the leather. It's telling you what you need to know, once you know to look for it.

Mac

[Tom B.]

photo of the inside

[Vermillion]

John Gruber makes a very nice gauntlet of this style. He posted some pics of his latest set just yesterday on Facebook.

[Tom B.]

John Gruber makes a very nice gauntlet of this style. He posted some pics of his latest set just yesterday on Facebook.

John's are rivet articulated on both sides.

[Mac]

This gets me thinking.... One way or another I have a number of pairs of these 14th C "sport gauntlets" kicking around the shop in various states. They were supposed to be "fill in" projects while I was working on the St. Florian, but all work stopped when I hurt my elbows.



....I could just run a dremmel wheel down the center and mount them up with leather. This had never occurred to me before. The whole thrust of the program had been to make the "perfect" 14th c sport gauntlet, and I settled on full mittens decades ago. Perhaps I will return to this idea after I have delivered the big project.

Mac

[Tom B.]

....I could just run a dremmel wheel down the center and mount them up with leather. This had never occurred to me before. The whole thrust of the program had been to make the "perfect" 14th c sport gauntlet, and I settled on full mittens decades ago. Perhaps I will return to this idea after I have delivered the big project.

Mac

This is an extremely good idea!
I know that there would be plenty of people lining up to buy a set.
I have been thinking of tinkering with a pair of mittens I have in just such a fashion.
Of course I have something a bit more like this in mind

[Tom B.]

Now that I am on a real computer instead of a phone here are some more useful photos (click on them to go to the full resolution photos):







These are on loan from the Met:

Pair of Guantlets from Garniture of Armor of Philip II of Spain
Desiderius Helmschmid
(German, Augsburg, 1513–1579)
Etcher: Ulrich Holzmann (German, Augsburg, recorded 1535–1562)
Date: 1546
Culture: German, Augsburg
Medium: Steel, gilt
Dimensions: (each) L. 10 in. (25.5 cm); W. 4¾ in. (12 cm); Wt. left (a) 17 oz. (475 g), right (b) 16 oz. (439 g)
Classification: Armor Parts-Gauntlets
Credit Line: Gift of William H. Riggs, 1913
Accession Number: 14.25.901a, b

The armor garniture to which these gauntlets belong is now divided between the Real Armería in Madrid and the former imperial armory in Vienna.

[Sean Powell]

I have some photos from a pair in Solothurn but unfortunately no interior shots.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t239 ... to0202.jpg
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t239 ... to0203.jpg
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t239 ... to0204.jpg
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t239 ... to0205.jpg
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t239 ... to0206.jpg

This gets me thinking.... One way or another I have a number of pairs of these 14th C "sport gauntlets" kicking around the shop in various states. They were supposed to be "fill in" projects while I was working on the St. Florian, but all work stopped when I hurt my elbows.

Mac

Mac,
If you ever decide to finish one of those 'kicking around the shop' pairs in either split or joined that fit a general mens large glove you know to give me a call, right?

Sean

[Armourkris]

Thanks everyone.

I got my brain stuck thinking that the leathers would be run in the extended position when the fingers were extended and not thinking that the articulation would be compressed when the fingers were extended. changing that around in my brain made all the difference.
I think doing them this way is definitely easier than making a good mitten, at least i managed to knock up a decent test finger in about an hour. it's ugly to be sure, but most of the uglyness is cosmetic stuff i ignored what with it being a test piece and all.
a bit of re-jiggering of my patterns to slim them up and add in an extra lame and i think i'll be off to the races

[InsaneIrish]

This gets me thinking.... One way or another I have a number of pairs of these 14th C "sport gauntlets" kicking around the shop in various states. They were supposed to be "fill in" projects while I was working on the St. Florian, but all work stopped when I hurt my elbows.



....I could just run a dremmel wheel down the center and mount them up with leather. This had never occurred to me before. The whole thrust of the program had been to make the "perfect" 14th c sport gauntlet, and I settled on full mittens decades ago. Perhaps I will return to this idea after I have delivered the big project.

Mac

And how much pray tell, would a set of those cost someone who might be interested?

[Mac]

And how much pray tell, would a set of those cost someone who might be interested?

"Reply hazy. Ask again later"

If I ever do get back to the gauntlets, I will need to figure that out. Let us just say that there is a lot of interest and not many gauntlets, and I will have to price them accordingly.

Mac

[Ckanite]

So what he means to say is "Out of Ckanite's price range"

[Tom B.]

I have dug up and revived this old thread that is relevant to this one

bifurcated gloves for a gauntlet

[Otto von Teich]

It seems finger gauntlets give better weapon control, and mittens give better protection. This would be the best of both worlds. Perhaps it would be the ultimate sport gauntlet! VERY Glad to see you working on armor again Mac.

[Johann ColdIron]

It seems finger gauntlets give better weapon control, and mittens give better protection. This would be the best of both worlds. Perhaps it would be the ultimate sport gauntlet! VERY Glad to see you working again Mac.

They also allow you to hold horse reins properly.


Long live the Splittens!

[Otto von Teich]

Very true! I like that word..."Splittens" It should be the official term!

[Mac]

They also allow you to hold horse reins properly.

Never assume that your riding instructor is informed about historical practice. Go have a look at a bunch of medieval depictions and see what they really did. You will be surprised by what you see.

Mac

[Johann ColdIron]

They also allow you to hold horse reins properly.

Never assume that your riding instructor is informed about historical practice. Go have a look at a bunch of medieval depictions and see what they really did. You will be surprised by what you see.

Mac

Considering I have only ridden informally I have a lot to learn! I can't say that I have ever noticed a difference in images I have seen. I may have only assumed they were holding them in the current fashion. What is the difference or do you have a suggested image that I could learn from?

[Mac]

Johann

I presumed that you were speaking from a position of having been taught to hold your reins like this pic....



...and that's why you were enthusiastic about the split mittens.

There are a number of modern ways to have the reins between your fingers, and like all things horsey, they each have followers who will tell you that they are the only correct way. As far as I can tell from the period pics I have looked at, the most common thing in the middle ages was to hold them with all four fingers.

I am sorry if I came across grumpy, Johann.

Peace,
Mac

[wcallen]

Just for fun, I asked my wife who rode (well) for years as a kid - mainly hunter/jumper and then did reasonably in local shows in SaddleSeat.

Note - NONE of this is medieval in any way.

She described 3 different ways of holding the reins even in that small subset of riding. None of them would be helped by this particular split mitten, and none of them match the picture of (what looks like) as western rider.

Lots of ways to skin a cat.

I still think that they would likely move pretty well with a weapon and offer more protection than the normal scale finger gauntlets. And they wouldn't have material between your fingers (which I personally hate, but that is just me).

Wade

[Gruber]

Surlyanvil gauntlets: http://youtu.be/easTxNEkhO0
Surlyanvil bifurcated: http://youtu.be/0Gm0RkjhMLw

[leekellerking]

Surlyanvil gauntlets: http://youtu.be/easTxNEkhO0
Surlyanvil bifurcated: http://youtu.be/0Gm0RkjhMLw

Gruber, the split finger gaunt video made me laugh.

And it made me covet a pair of my own!

[Gruber]

Mission accomplished!

[Sextus Maximus]

I like them very much lol

[Tom B.]

I know of at least one other extant bifurcated gauntlet with this same type of hybrid articulation.
However the plate construction / overlap is a bit different.

It is the left gauntlet on the Tonlet Armour of Charles V in Madrid (right gauntlet looks like solid mitten).
This armour is attributed to Kolman Helmschmeid from 1525-30.
It is also shown in the Inventario Illuminado.

[Mac]

It's a bit surprising to me that the inventario shows fingered gloves rather than split mittens inside the gauntlets.

Mac

[Tom B.]

It's a bit surprising to me that the inventario shows fingered gloves rather than split mittens inside the gauntlets.

Mac

That surprised me as well.
There are some gloves in a few of the photos from Goll's thesis.
Some look old but I am not sure how old.
There are some split mittens in a 16th century bifurcated gauntlet.
I will have to go back and look again to see how old they look.

[Gruber]

http://nebula.wsimg.com/5b890a9c7636db9 ... oworigin=1
I built these and two other pair like them for a couple of the guys on U.S. team going to the 2013 Battle of The Nations in Poland.
One of them, Avoloc, took 4th place in the one in one singles.