Early last year, I built a set of hourglass-style SCA gauntlets as a test.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=160827&p=2436458&hi ... x#p2436458
Once put together with padding and gloves, the movement restricted the grip. They're still sitting on my project shelf in the garage. Time to try again.
I like how the hourglass base-gauntlets came together, and I feel I have the thumbs down pat, so now I'll build these in 0.032" heat-treatable 4130 steel. I added a propane forge over the summer, so I intend to try heat-treating these smaller items myself.
The finger design though, is a different matter altogether. In the redesign stage, I'm stuck between multiple lames covering the fingers such as this "lost project" below made by Mac, or to make individual fingers lames and gadlings over a leather strip with felt padding, similar to the Black Prince's funerary gauntlets but w/o the tall gadling spikes. For extra protection from SCA fighting, I would add enclosed fingertips for each individual finger, similar to the thumbs.
What would you do? Pros and Cons to each design?
Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
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Ceawlin
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Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
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-Ceawlin Silvertongue
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Vert, on a bend sinister sable fimbriated argent between two crosses formy, a cross formy palewise Or.
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
In general, there is always a trade off between comfort and protection. The trick is to try to find a compromise that is satisfactory.
If I may be permitted to ramble a bit, I will list some of my findings and thoughts.
In general....
--Hourglass gauntlets make a pretty good starting point for sport gauntlets.
On the plus side...
--The bodies of the gauntlets have "no moving parts" to get out of order.
--It is a very strong shape.
--The flared cuffs provide adequate movement for most people, the side to side movement is probably better than most other types of authentic gauntlets.
--The shape plays well to a broad range of time.
--The overall shape is easy to achieve is you are willing to have a weld at the wrist.
On the minus side...
--They were historically equipped with individual fingers, which are not as protective as many people desire.
--The one piece construction makes it difficult to the thumb to work well with a range of weapons and grips.
--The overall shape is difficult to achieve without a weld at the wrist. (That is to say difficult to do without ending up with the knuckles and cuff thinner than the rest. )
Thumbs...
--Enclosed thumb tips are a nice feature. If they are made well, they are not much less convenient than open thumbs, but they make the end of the thumb essentially swordproof.
--Enclosed thumb tips are not contemporary with hourglass gauntlets.
--Open thumb tips (The sort that look like a fingernail.)are the authentic type for hourglass gauntlets.
--Open thumb tips are not so bad, really, as long as they are well designed and constructed. The steel must extend beyond the nail, and the rivet and leather must be placed so as not to be any more intrusive than necessary. The glove must be closely enough fitted that the thumb can not get out from under its plates.
--If the thumbs are designed to tuck under the finger lames, (see mittens, below) open thumbs are probably the best thing.
--Semi-closed thumb tips (the sort whose end is raised down but not extended under the tip of the thumb)are common in modern sports gauntlets but are almost unknown in historical armor.
--Semi-closed thumb tips may be the worst of both worlds. This sort can injure the wearer in two ways. The first is by the thumb tip getting past the terminal edge, which is then driven forcibly into the nail. The second is by the terminal edge catching the thumbnail and tearing it free of the nail bed if struck in such a way that the thumb is forced back. I used to make thumbs this way until I understood the problem, at which point I recalled my gauntlets and installed enclosed thumbs.
--The thumb may be attached to the metacarpal of an hourglass gauntlet three basic ways; rivets, sliding rivets, and leather.
--Thumbs attached with internal leather are authentic, comfortable and reasonably protective. Their chief downside is that the lather wears out rapidly.
--Thumbs attached with two rivets are very protective but do not accept a range of weapon handle/haft sizes. This method was used in the predecessors of the hourglass gauntlets, where the thumb root was covered be a separate plate.
--Thumbs attached with two sliding rivets are a good compromise, although it is probably not authentic for hourglasses.
--Thumbs attached with one rivet in the middle are a bad compromise. That rivet can injure the wearer by getting driven into the joint. I think I have seen this attachment used for manifers, but not gauntlets per se. I used it on my early gauntlets and then abandoned it.
Mitten type finger protection...
--Historically, hourglass gauntlets would not have had any sort of mitten, but they are a good compromise for sport gauntlets.
--Mittens of any sort are going to be more protective than fingers of any sort. (I am presuming sound design and construction)
--Mittens are of two basic types; the type that shields but does not cover the finger tips, and the type that follows and covers the fingers all the way to the tips.
--The shielding type (typified by Milanese mittens) can have one or two lames. In either case, the finger tips must be provided with their own defense. Open thumbs work well here because they have room to be under the mitten lames and over the fingertip armor.
--Mittens that cover the fingers entirely come in two sub-types: "three lame" and "multiple lame".
--Three-lame mittens have one lame per phalanx. The articulations must be placed to approximate the joint locations of the hand when holding a weapon.
--Multiple lame mittens approximate the the grasping fingers as a whole, rather than "joint by joint". They typically have between 5 and 7 lames.
--In any type of mitten, the articulations on the "little finger" side will be closer together than the articulations on "pointing finger" side.
--Multiple lame mittens can be made with sliding rivets. This allows a greater range of grip angles.
--When adapting any sort of mitten to an hourglass gauntlet, care must be taken to make the the articulation such that the inside of the first knuckle is smooth when the hand is flexed. This can be tricky with deeply boxed knuckles.
--Any sort of mitten can be embossed to more or less suggest individual fingers. This makes the mitten look less jarringly inauthentic (to me, anyway) in an hourglass context.
Individual finger protection....
--Historically, this is what hourglass gauntlets had.
--Any historical type of individual fingers will be more comfortable and flexible than any type of mitten.
--No type of individual finger will be as protective as a mitten.
--Individual finger armor comes in several different types....scales, floating "cops and cannons", scales and cops, and articulated "cops and cannons".
--Scales are riveted to a backing leather. Between about six and twelve of them cover each finger; secured to the leather with two rivets each.
--Scales are much maligned modernly. Everyone "knows" that someone "lost a finger of two" using scales back in AS-single digits. That does not appear to actually be true, and as far as I can tell a well made set of scale fingers will work OK.
--These are in a sense the analogue of the "multi-lame mitten" in that they simply curl around the finger without special consideration form the jointed nature of the digits. This means that the fit is not very critical.
--Floating "cops and cannons" (yes, I made that term up) were probably the most common finger armor on hourglass gauntlets historically.
--In this system, shallow gutter-shaped plates cover the phalanges, and dished plates cover the knuckles. The third knuckle may or may not have a cop. All plates are riveted to a backing leather.
--Most cops are held on by a pair of rivets set low down on the side.
--There is another type of knuckle cop which is held to the backing leather with a single rivet in the center. I have never tried this sort, but I suspect that they are a poor compromise for modern sports use. The rivet placement seems treacherous to the underlying joint.
--Lots of folks use floating "cops n' cannons" successfully, with or without padding.
--Because the knuckles are given different treatment than the phalanges, some consideration of anatomy is necessary to get them proportioned correctly. That sounds like more trouble than it is, really, because within normal limits, everyone's hands are similar enough to fit into a few sizes.
--Scales and cops (yea, I made that up too) is a less common variation in which a scale finger has its knuckles covered with dished plates. Their big advantage is that one would not have the effect where the scales all stick up at the flexed knuckles. I mention these more for completeness than anything else.
--The articulated fingers, as shown in Thordeman's Wisby book are probably the most protective type.
--Historically, these were probably uncommon, but they work quite nicely for sport gauntlets.
--I have typically put a thin layer of dense closed cell foam between the glove and the finger armor. Some folks report that they do not bother to replace the foam when is wears out.
--The doctrine of "grounding to the weapon" is hogwash. (this could be the subject of a long an vitriolic rant)
--Finger plates should be deep enough to "cup" the fingers, but no deeper.
--Both the comfort and the efficacy of finger armor is in inverse proportion to how much it forces the fingers apart.
--If the armor forces the fingers apart, they will end up getting outside the armor. If this happens, deeper armor is more likely to cause injury than shallower armor.
--Fully enclosed finger tips should work OK if they are closely fitted. (I have never tried them)
--Open finger tips (the fingernail shaped sort that real gauntlets have) are adequate most of the time... provided the fingers can not get out from under them.
--Semi closed finger tips are a not as bad a compromise as semi closed thumbs (see above) ...provided that the armor is long enough the fingers tips can not extend beyond the armor.
Split-mitten type finger defenses...
--I have never tried these; so I am speaking theoretically here.
--These could be a very good compromise for sport gauntlets. Historically, they were bit of a loser; but we have different needs and expectations.
--From what I have seen, they have the same articulation geometry as any multi lame mitten.
--I suspect that the best way to make them is to make a working set of mitten lames and then quite literally just cut them in half and put in leathers to control the middles.
....There may be more to come later.
Mac
If I may be permitted to ramble a bit, I will list some of my findings and thoughts.
In general....
--Hourglass gauntlets make a pretty good starting point for sport gauntlets.
On the plus side...
--The bodies of the gauntlets have "no moving parts" to get out of order.
--It is a very strong shape.
--The flared cuffs provide adequate movement for most people, the side to side movement is probably better than most other types of authentic gauntlets.
--The shape plays well to a broad range of time.
--The overall shape is easy to achieve is you are willing to have a weld at the wrist.
On the minus side...
--They were historically equipped with individual fingers, which are not as protective as many people desire.
--The one piece construction makes it difficult to the thumb to work well with a range of weapons and grips.
--The overall shape is difficult to achieve without a weld at the wrist. (That is to say difficult to do without ending up with the knuckles and cuff thinner than the rest. )
Thumbs...
--Enclosed thumb tips are a nice feature. If they are made well, they are not much less convenient than open thumbs, but they make the end of the thumb essentially swordproof.
--Enclosed thumb tips are not contemporary with hourglass gauntlets.
--Open thumb tips (The sort that look like a fingernail.)are the authentic type for hourglass gauntlets.
--Open thumb tips are not so bad, really, as long as they are well designed and constructed. The steel must extend beyond the nail, and the rivet and leather must be placed so as not to be any more intrusive than necessary. The glove must be closely enough fitted that the thumb can not get out from under its plates.
--If the thumbs are designed to tuck under the finger lames, (see mittens, below) open thumbs are probably the best thing.
--Semi-closed thumb tips (the sort whose end is raised down but not extended under the tip of the thumb)are common in modern sports gauntlets but are almost unknown in historical armor.
--Semi-closed thumb tips may be the worst of both worlds. This sort can injure the wearer in two ways. The first is by the thumb tip getting past the terminal edge, which is then driven forcibly into the nail. The second is by the terminal edge catching the thumbnail and tearing it free of the nail bed if struck in such a way that the thumb is forced back. I used to make thumbs this way until I understood the problem, at which point I recalled my gauntlets and installed enclosed thumbs.
--The thumb may be attached to the metacarpal of an hourglass gauntlet three basic ways; rivets, sliding rivets, and leather.
--Thumbs attached with internal leather are authentic, comfortable and reasonably protective. Their chief downside is that the lather wears out rapidly.
--Thumbs attached with two rivets are very protective but do not accept a range of weapon handle/haft sizes. This method was used in the predecessors of the hourglass gauntlets, where the thumb root was covered be a separate plate.
--Thumbs attached with two sliding rivets are a good compromise, although it is probably not authentic for hourglasses.
--Thumbs attached with one rivet in the middle are a bad compromise. That rivet can injure the wearer by getting driven into the joint. I think I have seen this attachment used for manifers, but not gauntlets per se. I used it on my early gauntlets and then abandoned it.
Mitten type finger protection...
--Historically, hourglass gauntlets would not have had any sort of mitten, but they are a good compromise for sport gauntlets.
--Mittens of any sort are going to be more protective than fingers of any sort. (I am presuming sound design and construction)
--Mittens are of two basic types; the type that shields but does not cover the finger tips, and the type that follows and covers the fingers all the way to the tips.
--The shielding type (typified by Milanese mittens) can have one or two lames. In either case, the finger tips must be provided with their own defense. Open thumbs work well here because they have room to be under the mitten lames and over the fingertip armor.
--Mittens that cover the fingers entirely come in two sub-types: "three lame" and "multiple lame".
--Three-lame mittens have one lame per phalanx. The articulations must be placed to approximate the joint locations of the hand when holding a weapon.
--Multiple lame mittens approximate the the grasping fingers as a whole, rather than "joint by joint". They typically have between 5 and 7 lames.
--In any type of mitten, the articulations on the "little finger" side will be closer together than the articulations on "pointing finger" side.
--Multiple lame mittens can be made with sliding rivets. This allows a greater range of grip angles.
--When adapting any sort of mitten to an hourglass gauntlet, care must be taken to make the the articulation such that the inside of the first knuckle is smooth when the hand is flexed. This can be tricky with deeply boxed knuckles.
--Any sort of mitten can be embossed to more or less suggest individual fingers. This makes the mitten look less jarringly inauthentic (to me, anyway) in an hourglass context.
Individual finger protection....
--Historically, this is what hourglass gauntlets had.
--Any historical type of individual fingers will be more comfortable and flexible than any type of mitten.
--No type of individual finger will be as protective as a mitten.
--Individual finger armor comes in several different types....scales, floating "cops and cannons", scales and cops, and articulated "cops and cannons".
--Scales are riveted to a backing leather. Between about six and twelve of them cover each finger; secured to the leather with two rivets each.
--Scales are much maligned modernly. Everyone "knows" that someone "lost a finger of two" using scales back in AS-single digits. That does not appear to actually be true, and as far as I can tell a well made set of scale fingers will work OK.
--These are in a sense the analogue of the "multi-lame mitten" in that they simply curl around the finger without special consideration form the jointed nature of the digits. This means that the fit is not very critical.
--Floating "cops and cannons" (yes, I made that term up) were probably the most common finger armor on hourglass gauntlets historically.
--In this system, shallow gutter-shaped plates cover the phalanges, and dished plates cover the knuckles. The third knuckle may or may not have a cop. All plates are riveted to a backing leather.
--Most cops are held on by a pair of rivets set low down on the side.
--There is another type of knuckle cop which is held to the backing leather with a single rivet in the center. I have never tried this sort, but I suspect that they are a poor compromise for modern sports use. The rivet placement seems treacherous to the underlying joint.
--Lots of folks use floating "cops n' cannons" successfully, with or without padding.
--Because the knuckles are given different treatment than the phalanges, some consideration of anatomy is necessary to get them proportioned correctly. That sounds like more trouble than it is, really, because within normal limits, everyone's hands are similar enough to fit into a few sizes.
--Scales and cops (yea, I made that up too) is a less common variation in which a scale finger has its knuckles covered with dished plates. Their big advantage is that one would not have the effect where the scales all stick up at the flexed knuckles. I mention these more for completeness than anything else.
--The articulated fingers, as shown in Thordeman's Wisby book are probably the most protective type.
--Historically, these were probably uncommon, but they work quite nicely for sport gauntlets.
--I have typically put a thin layer of dense closed cell foam between the glove and the finger armor. Some folks report that they do not bother to replace the foam when is wears out.
--The doctrine of "grounding to the weapon" is hogwash. (this could be the subject of a long an vitriolic rant)
--Finger plates should be deep enough to "cup" the fingers, but no deeper.
--Both the comfort and the efficacy of finger armor is in inverse proportion to how much it forces the fingers apart.
--If the armor forces the fingers apart, they will end up getting outside the armor. If this happens, deeper armor is more likely to cause injury than shallower armor.
--Fully enclosed finger tips should work OK if they are closely fitted. (I have never tried them)
--Open finger tips (the fingernail shaped sort that real gauntlets have) are adequate most of the time... provided the fingers can not get out from under them.
--Semi closed finger tips are a not as bad a compromise as semi closed thumbs (see above) ...provided that the armor is long enough the fingers tips can not extend beyond the armor.
Split-mitten type finger defenses...
--I have never tried these; so I am speaking theoretically here.
--These could be a very good compromise for sport gauntlets. Historically, they were bit of a loser; but we have different needs and expectations.
--From what I have seen, they have the same articulation geometry as any multi lame mitten.
--I suspect that the best way to make them is to make a working set of mitten lames and then quite literally just cut them in half and put in leathers to control the middles.
....There may be more to come later.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
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Ceawlin
- Archive Member
- Posts: 578
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Lochmere (near Baltimore, MD)
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
Mac,
Thank you for that detailed response. It has taken me down a couple paths I hadn't thought of. I have the Wisby book reprint, and had to check it again for the articulated finger which I had somehow missed before.
My eventual goal is to depict the arms of an English knight from around 1380. Now I think I'm steering towards a 5-7 multi-lame mitten design, as I tend to get hit in the hands often fighting buckler and poleaxe. At the moment, I feel the extra protection will be worth the loss of some historical-ness... but a Milanese-style two-lame mitten with enclosed fingers would be a good trade-off for mobility vs. protection, yet seems the most jarring in an historical appearance context.
I seem to think while I type...
Thank you for that detailed response. It has taken me down a couple paths I hadn't thought of. I have the Wisby book reprint, and had to check it again for the articulated finger which I had somehow missed before.
My eventual goal is to depict the arms of an English knight from around 1380. Now I think I'm steering towards a 5-7 multi-lame mitten design, as I tend to get hit in the hands often fighting buckler and poleaxe. At the moment, I feel the extra protection will be worth the loss of some historical-ness... but a Milanese-style two-lame mitten with enclosed fingers would be a good trade-off for mobility vs. protection, yet seems the most jarring in an historical appearance context.
I seem to think while I type...
-Ceawlin Silvertongue
------------------------------------
Vert, on a bend sinister sable fimbriated argent between two crosses formy, a cross formy palewise Or.
------------------------------------
Vert, on a bend sinister sable fimbriated argent between two crosses formy, a cross formy palewise Or.
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RevBigEars
- Archive Member
- Posts: 81
- Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 3:30 am
- Location: Elk River, MN
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
Wow, thank you Mac for sharing your thoughts and experiences!
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
I've been building the bifurcated design for the past two years for a few of the live steel groups for exactly the same reasons. My first pair I built are in still in use from 2007. The design is briliant, and the dexterity is crazy!
http://youtu.be/0Gm0RkjhMLw
http://youtu.be/easTxNEkhO0
http://youtu.be/0Gm0RkjhMLw
http://youtu.be/easTxNEkhO0
-
Ceawlin
- Archive Member
- Posts: 578
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Lochmere (near Baltimore, MD)
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
Gruber,
I've seen your gauntlet videos, and I'm impressed by the engineering skills you have. Many kudos to you for creating something historical that you just don't see.
I've seen your gauntlet videos, and I'm impressed by the engineering skills you have. Many kudos to you for creating something historical that you just don't see.
-Ceawlin Silvertongue
------------------------------------
Vert, on a bend sinister sable fimbriated argent between two crosses formy, a cross formy palewise Or.
------------------------------------
Vert, on a bend sinister sable fimbriated argent between two crosses formy, a cross formy palewise Or.
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
RevBigEars wrote:Wow, thank you Mac for sharing your thoughts and experiences!
No problem, guys. It's sometimes good to wright stuff down, just to have a chance to think it through. Putting thoughts into words lets the left-brain in on what the right-brain is thinking. It's good to get both hemispheres on the same page.Ceawlin wrote:Mac,
Thank you for that detailed response.
I'm a bit surprised that there has not been further discussion. I sort of expected folks to add their thoughts... or perhaps tell me that I was wrong, or mad, or something.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
Gruber,Gruber wrote:I've been building the bifurcated design for the past two years for a few of the live steel groups for exactly the same reasons. My first pair I built are in still in use from 2007. The design is briliant, and the dexterity is crazy!
http://youtu.be/0Gm0RkjhMLw
http://youtu.be/easTxNEkhO0
Those are nicely engineered! I am anxious to see how split mittens would work with leathers, rather than riveted articulations, between the fingers. My guess is that they will be vaguely less protective, but more comfortable to wear, and maybe even more (!) flexible.
Since you are likely to get to try this before I am, I'm hoping you will give it a go and tell us how it went.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
Oh my God! Thank you Mac and Caelwin! I have four orders for them now, I'll see if one of my customers would be willing to be the guinea pig in regards to the leathers.
I can't believe it- I may actually be contributing to an ongoing discussion between Mac AND Caelwin at the same time.... Pipe dream 85% fulfilled.
I can't believe it- I may actually be contributing to an ongoing discussion between Mac AND Caelwin at the same time.... Pipe dream 85% fulfilled.
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
You go, guy! I think we all look forward to seeing how it works.
Mac
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
I will experiment Sunday with the leathers. I have three orders for them now, so it's probably best to dial these ideas in now, eh?
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Ceawlin
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- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Lochmere (near Baltimore, MD)
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
Mac, a question, if I may...
What were some of your thoughts behind the design of Tobias Capwell's gauntlets?
What were some of your thoughts behind the design of Tobias Capwell's gauntlets?
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-Ceawlin Silvertongue
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Vert, on a bend sinister sable fimbriated argent between two crosses formy, a cross formy palewise Or.
------------------------------------
Vert, on a bend sinister sable fimbriated argent between two crosses formy, a cross formy palewise Or.
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Jonathon Janusz
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Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
I've never been a fan of the hourglass-turned-mitten gauntlets I've seen; just seems like an afterthought of a solution.
Full disclosure being that I've never had an expertly fitted pair of gauntlets. Reading Mac's post, I could almost check off the boxes under each of the failings.
Gruber's videos pique my interest. Mac, you say that historically the style was a bit of a loser. Could you please elaborate on this? Do you just mean it was a fashion trend that had a very short shelf life? I see what looks like an interior shot of a museum photo of an antique pair. Does anyone in this discussion have any pointers in the right direction to study these further historically?
Full disclosure being that I've never had an expertly fitted pair of gauntlets. Reading Mac's post, I could almost check off the boxes under each of the failings.
Gruber's videos pique my interest. Mac, you say that historically the style was a bit of a loser. Could you please elaborate on this? Do you just mean it was a fashion trend that had a very short shelf life? I see what looks like an interior shot of a museum photo of an antique pair. Does anyone in this discussion have any pointers in the right direction to study these further historically?
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wcallen
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- Location: North Carolina, USA
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Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
See this thread for more pictures of those gauntlets:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=174583
It does seem to be something they didn't do for long. I expect that they were dealing with different concerns.
Those are a split between the way they tended to build single finger gauntlets (on leathers) and the way they built mittens (articulated at the sides).
The nice thing with these is that they seem like they would provide plates that are actually connected to each other to help spread blow force between plates (from the side articulations) and still provides independent finger movement without having the steel between fingers that seem to greatly annoy some of us (including me).
Wade
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=174583
It does seem to be something they didn't do for long. I expect that they were dealing with different concerns.
Those are a split between the way they tended to build single finger gauntlets (on leathers) and the way they built mittens (articulated at the sides).
The nice thing with these is that they seem like they would provide plates that are actually connected to each other to help spread blow force between plates (from the side articulations) and still provides independent finger movement without having the steel between fingers that seem to greatly annoy some of us (including me).
Wade
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
Jonathon,Jonathon Janusz wrote:I've never been a fan of the hourglass-turned-mitten gauntlets I've seen; just seems like an afterthought of a solution.
To tell the truth, I always feel a bit dirty about them myself, but they work well in an SCA context. We moderns have different needs and expectations than out ancestors, and these unholy hybrids address them pretty well.
Like Wade says. There are very few of this type of gauntlet extant, even though they are from the "great age". Seat-of-the-pants statistics tells us that they were never popular. I conclude from this that they must not have been a favorable compromise in their day.Jonathon Janusz wrote: Mac, you say that historically the style was a bit of a loser. Could you please elaborate on this?
Mac
Robert MacPherson
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
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http://www.billyandcharlie.com
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Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
Ceawlin,Ceawlin wrote:Mac, a question, if I may...
What were some of your thoughts behind the design of Tobias Capwell's gauntlets?
The wrist articulations are something we see on English gauntlets of the early 15th C. They begin appearing on funerary brasses in the second decade, and on effigies a bit later. Sadly, nothing like them has survived, and the effigy makers have obviously taken some liberties with the proportions to make them look "nicer", and more like hands. I made the wrist lame as a sort of elliptic cylinder. If I were to do it again, I would base the wrist lame (or lames) on an elliptic conic frustum. I have done a lot of modeling on the light table since then, and I think that the conic thing would do a better job by allowing the gauntlet to end up slimmer looking.
The fingers on the effigies probably represent some variant of that I term "floating cops and cannons"; but we wanted something robust, so we went with the articulated fingers instead. I just can't help feeling better about articulated joints. They are a bit bulkier, but you can't find better protection for individual fingers.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
The last few pair of gauntlets I've made with articulated wrists, I've increased the length of the wrist area fore and aft using the center of the wrist as my benchmark. I then cut my one piece pattern, shape it with the same method of shrinking/compression and flaring as you would a one piece hourglass gaunt; until the overall shape is appealing, graceful, and fits; then slice my wrist articulation from the hand back to the beginning of the cuff, refine the individual lames a bit, then articulate and assemble. The result is a very nice flow from one lame to the next and smooth, natural articulation. This works really well on Gothic and later period gauntlets.
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Jonathon Janusz
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Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
Thanks for the replies; after posting, I saw the other threads regarding this gauntlet type and read through them. Any other examples than the Philip II ones to look in to?
Thinking practically, and considering that the most basic battlefield dexterity requirements haven't really changed much in a few hundred years, I can see possibly why this style didn't take off very far. Binding the index and middle fingers together really eliminates a lot of options in fine motor work (and in the case of the period as discussed, specifically the operation of newly expanded roles of firearms?), and if one is going to make a sacrifice for the sake of dexterity or protection, it would probably be preferred to go "all in" one way or the other to maximize benefit/minimize compromise.
Now, as exchange pieces for a tournament harness on the other hand, I really can start to see the appeal. This dedicated, purpose built use maybe suggesting the scarcity, in addition to the whim of fashion guiding the design changes later on historically?
Thinking practically, and considering that the most basic battlefield dexterity requirements haven't really changed much in a few hundred years, I can see possibly why this style didn't take off very far. Binding the index and middle fingers together really eliminates a lot of options in fine motor work (and in the case of the period as discussed, specifically the operation of newly expanded roles of firearms?), and if one is going to make a sacrifice for the sake of dexterity or protection, it would probably be preferred to go "all in" one way or the other to maximize benefit/minimize compromise.
Now, as exchange pieces for a tournament harness on the other hand, I really can start to see the appeal. This dedicated, purpose built use maybe suggesting the scarcity, in addition to the whim of fashion guiding the design changes later on historically?
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
So, I took a little time today to try out the rivet and leather articulation in regards to the bifurcated sport hourglass theme. Here's what it looks like in motion. I like it. I think they could find a place on our rattan combat fields. Thoughts?
Bifurcated articulated with rivets and leathers: http://youtu.be/EL5kj6Q-2gU
Bifurcated articulated with rivets and leathers: http://youtu.be/EL5kj6Q-2gU
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Ceawlin
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Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
It has plenty of movement, but how does it take a hit/distribute impact? Are there any concerns we haven't thought of yet? Could someone's fingers come out from under the edge?
-Ceawlin Silvertongue
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Vert, on a bend sinister sable fimbriated argent between two crosses formy, a cross formy palewise Or.
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Vert, on a bend sinister sable fimbriated argent between two crosses formy, a cross formy palewise Or.
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wcallen
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Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
Gruber will have to tell us. Or his customer will.Ceawlin wrote:It has plenty of movement, but how does it take a hit/distribute impact? Are there any concerns we haven't thought of yet? Could someone's fingers come out from under the edge?
Without any real knowledge, I would hope that they would spread the force better than normal leather-mounted finger gauntlets because there is an actual connection on one side where the plates are secured by rivets to each other. I would expect that they would be worse than ones which have rivets on both sides because the other side will allow some additional independent motion. I also suspect that they will be much more comfortable for those of us who hate stuff between our fingers. There is a good chance that some users will think that this picks a happy medium, and some won't.
It really would be fun to be able to compare similar gauntlets build with mittens, articulated split mittens and the half-and-half split mittens. I have worn finger gauntlets, so I know how those work.
I expect we are all awaiting Gruber's continued experiment on our behalf.
Wade
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
Well, I suppose a finger could slide out from under on the leather side if the plates weren't made wide enough. In regards to the inside fingers slipping out, the same is true for fingered gauntleets no? I think the way to ensure the two fingers in each group stay like together would be to sew the fingers of the gloves together.
The ones I just shipped off were riveted on both sides, but the interior "legs" don't begin to really extend downward between the fingers until almost to the tips, keeping the articulation on rivets, but the between the fingers feel at a minimum. When I punched the bench I felt almost no energy transfer, and while operating the drill and drawing it didn't even register there was material there. I'm leaning toward the hard articulation over leather on the interior sides of the finger cluster.
I still can't believe I'm adding to a "Mac, Wade and Cailwinn" discussion.
The ones I just shipped off were riveted on both sides, but the interior "legs" don't begin to really extend downward between the fingers until almost to the tips, keeping the articulation on rivets, but the between the fingers feel at a minimum. When I punched the bench I felt almost no energy transfer, and while operating the drill and drawing it didn't even register there was material there. I'm leaning toward the hard articulation over leather on the interior sides of the finger cluster.
I still can't believe I'm adding to a "Mac, Wade and Cailwinn" discussion.
Re: Ideas for historical-themed SCA hourglass gauntlets
If it should turn out to be a problem, you could sew the second and third glove-fingers to the central leathers. I'd be surprised if it's necessary, though.
Mac
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie