New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered globose)
- Amanda M
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New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered globose)
I am going to be assembling a corrazina type of armor soon and I want to make it in construction as close as I reasonably can to its historical counterparts but I have a ton of questions. I was digging online to try and find pictures of museum pieces to help me figure out what I need to know and lo and behold, digging through the Goll's thesis photos, somewhere around the bottom I found pics of what I am pretty sure is this corrazina.
(Edit: Mad Matt pointed out it is actually a fabric covered globose. Edited the title to reflect this)
I am going to repost the photos here in the hopes maybe a but of a discussion about some of the details might happen. I have been asking myself how the different layers go together and how they are attached. What the materials are, what the buckles ought to be like, etc. I had some observations that will follow when I get the chance. Posting at work right now.
(Edit: Mad Matt pointed out it is actually a fabric covered globose. Edited the title to reflect this)
I am going to repost the photos here in the hopes maybe a but of a discussion about some of the details might happen. I have been asking myself how the different layers go together and how they are attached. What the materials are, what the buckles ought to be like, etc. I had some observations that will follow when I get the chance. Posting at work right now.
Last edited by Amanda M on Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
I was talking with a few people on facebook about these photos and it looks like a layer of thin leather with a fabric shell over the top. In some of the photos you can see the fabric attached to the leather with stitching and in others it looks like the shell is stitched to itself. I have been wondering if armor like this might have an inner shell as well and the one on this one was removed at some point. Anyone have any thoughts?
- Keegan Ingrassia
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
Most brigs and corrazinas that I've come across don't have an interior lining, just the exterior layers. It would be onerous to get fabric to lay nicely against the concave surface without either glue or hard attachment. The rivets don't have any fibers trapped underneath them on the inside, and if there was any glued-in fabric, the conservationists did an amazing job of removing fabric and glue residue without affecting the exterior. Also, wouldn't there be some evidence at the edges of the exterior shell being stitched to the interior as well?
Building a corrazina is one of my long-term goals, so I'm excited to see how this project works out for you. I'm glad to see the reinforced plates for the left strap over the shoulder. I'm intrigued by the plate on the same strap, though...the one with the pin holding down that square of leather. An attachment point for...what?
Building a corrazina is one of my long-term goals, so I'm excited to see how this project works out for you. I'm glad to see the reinforced plates for the left strap over the shoulder. I'm intrigued by the plate on the same strap, though...the one with the pin holding down that square of leather. An attachment point for...what?
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
Amanda,
I am glad you finally had the time to dig through all of those photos and find something usefull.
Do you happen to know the number Goll assigned to this piece?
I am glad you finally had the time to dig through all of those photos and find something usefull.
Do you happen to know the number Goll assigned to this piece?
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
I am not positive but it may be related to the name the photo downloaded as. I didn't rename them. I would have to save a couple things and see when I am back at the computer.
There are some spots where the inside and outside are stitched together. There is a shot of the inside I believe shoulder piece where the thin leather looks whip stitched to the outer fabric layer. Apologies if my terminology is wrong. It's hard to tell with the damage to the piece if some sketchy attempts at restoration happened and I am not sure always of what I am looking at.
Also in some spots where the fabric is preserved better it looks like a red fabric with a gold brocade maybe. If anyone can comment on that I am interested as well because numerous italian manuscripts depict what looks like a corrazina sort of armor with a richly decorated fabric shell.
When I start the assembly I am going to document the whole process. The other interesting thing I noted while looking specifically for corrazina type items is that the buckles surviving on large plates I think ALL had a buckle plate and some even had rollers which clearly is something many reproduction armors lack. I will be striving to include these details in my build. Doug Strong commented on the facebook side of the discussion as said it was very common for the time.
There are some spots where the inside and outside are stitched together. There is a shot of the inside I believe shoulder piece where the thin leather looks whip stitched to the outer fabric layer. Apologies if my terminology is wrong. It's hard to tell with the damage to the piece if some sketchy attempts at restoration happened and I am not sure always of what I am looking at.
Also in some spots where the fabric is preserved better it looks like a red fabric with a gold brocade maybe. If anyone can comment on that I am interested as well because numerous italian manuscripts depict what looks like a corrazina sort of armor with a richly decorated fabric shell.
When I start the assembly I am going to document the whole process. The other interesting thing I noted while looking specifically for corrazina type items is that the buckles surviving on large plates I think ALL had a buckle plate and some even had rollers which clearly is something many reproduction armors lack. I will be striving to include these details in my build. Doug Strong commented on the facebook side of the discussion as said it was very common for the time.
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
Not exactly a corrizina thus it's a covered globose breastplate with a fauld.
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
What distinguishes them from each other?
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
Corrizina has articulation in the breastplate
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
It's actually a split breastplate with one piece slightly overlapping the other and often closed by buckles in period art.
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
Ah well.... the term has a modern denotation and medieval. The modern one indicates the split chest. in period it is murkier and I suspect it might include more than the modern one.
RPM
RPM
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
Yup.Henrik Granlid wrote:It's actually a split breastplate with one piece slightly overlapping the other and often closed by buckles in period art.
Corrazina:
Covered cuirass:
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
I get you. Mine will split down the front. Do you think the construction details would be very different in terms of covering and stuff?
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
The only place I'm seeing leather stitched to cloth is on the shoulder straps, the body of the breast seems to be layers of cloth wiht the outer shell being red velvet. Nothing I see makes me think this piece had an internall lining and having such would be atypical for cloth covered armours. The loose pin hinge attachments for the shoulders area cool feature which Mac duplicated on Master Gallerons/Will McLean's harness.
Most of the surviving cloth covered armours form roughly this period or a little later suggest a couple layers of stout fabric with a decorative outer layer to be the typical approach.
Most of the surviving cloth covered armours form roughly this period or a little later suggest a couple layers of stout fabric with a decorative outer layer to be the typical approach.
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
Fundamentally, there isn't a huge difference in construction between a corrazina and a covered globose, just different plates. Here's an internal shot of that corrazina recreation.
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/340936634266742895/
As Henrick mentioned, there is an overlap on the front plates, typically left over right. As to the rest of the body, people generally do it two different ways. Some, like above, make the outer covering all in one piece. Others go for a more modular construction, relying on straps and buckles to keep everything together. This does have the benefit of being able to adjust the fit.
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/340936634266742894/
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/340936634266742895/
As Henrick mentioned, there is an overlap on the front plates, typically left over right. As to the rest of the body, people generally do it two different ways. Some, like above, make the outer covering all in one piece. Others go for a more modular construction, relying on straps and buckles to keep everything together. This does have the benefit of being able to adjust the fit.
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/340936634266742894/
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
I wasn't sure if the hinge on the shoulder was genuine or not. Interesting! Do you guys thing the overlap of the shell was riveted in place or stitched along the edges?
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
Riveted in place would be most likely. I can't recall any extant pieces from this era where the shell appearted to be sewn to the plates.
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
The museum professional in me is cringing at the "artifact mount" holding the armour in those pictures.
Must have taught themselves to weld doing it!
Must have taught themselves to weld doing it!
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I'm not dead yet!
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
Looking back a the shoulder piece I was referring to, it looks like the stitching isn't to the shell of the breastplate itself, but on a piece of maybe reinforcing leather where the cool shoulder hinge plate is.
Re: New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered glob
There are few questions in history whose answer I want more then I want to know what the back armour of this piece looked like when it was new...
"When a land rejects her legends, Sees but falsehoods in the past;
And its people view their Sires in the light of fools and liars,
'Tis a sign of its decline and its glories cannot last."
And its people view their Sires in the light of fools and liars,
'Tis a sign of its decline and its glories cannot last."
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Re: New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered glob
I think any one of us could say the same but I am also interested in how things were made.
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
Aw, come on. I thought that was the perfect piece to try to emulate in my mounts.Johann ColdIron wrote:The museum professional in me is cringing at the "artifact mount" holding the armour in those pictures.
Must have taught themselves to weld doing it!
More seriously, it is pretty icky.
One thing that intrigues me is the fact that the 2 shoulders are completely different. I wonder how that came about?
Wade
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Re: New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered glob
There is also a really ugly looking roll and someone mentioned when I posted them on facebook that it was probably a bad later modification.
Re: New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered glob
As far as I can tell, the left shoulder strap is made up of three layers of material. The outer layer is red velvet, the middle layer is canvas, and the inner layer is a white (tawed?) leather. The two outer (fabric) layers are a continuation of the breastplate covering. The inner layer of leather is sewn to the fabric layers around its exposed edges. I suspect that the edge of the leather that we can not see is caught up in the uppermost horizontal row of rivets at the top of the breastplate. The two edges of the shoulder strap that "show", that is the neck edge and the shoulder edge are bound in a strip of red velvet.
Between the fabric layers and the leather layer are three iron or steel strips. They are riveted through the velvet and canvas. They do not overlap one another or the breastplate. This is the surprising thing. I would have expected them to overlap. They are also shorter than the width of the shoulder strap. This presumable allows a bit more neck room in spite of the great width of the shoulder strap.
Here, where the velvet is partially torn away, we can see some traces of the canvas over the first plate.
I think we can presume that the leather is serving as a lining, rather than a load bearing layer. Thin, "glovey" leather like this would not contribute much strength, but it would keep the plates from abrading and catching on the wearer's doublet or his mail.
That shoulder straps were frequently plated inside can be inferred from the rivets and lines we see in art. They are pretty obvious here on Sir Ralph....
... but you have to sort of squint and imagine what they might have looked like when this fresco was in better condition.
Mac
Between the fabric layers and the leather layer are three iron or steel strips. They are riveted through the velvet and canvas. They do not overlap one another or the breastplate. This is the surprising thing. I would have expected them to overlap. They are also shorter than the width of the shoulder strap. This presumable allows a bit more neck room in spite of the great width of the shoulder strap.
Here, where the velvet is partially torn away, we can see some traces of the canvas over the first plate.
I think we can presume that the leather is serving as a lining, rather than a load bearing layer. Thin, "glovey" leather like this would not contribute much strength, but it would keep the plates from abrading and catching on the wearer's doublet or his mail.
That shoulder straps were frequently plated inside can be inferred from the rivets and lines we see in art. They are pretty obvious here on Sir Ralph....
... but you have to sort of squint and imagine what they might have looked like when this fresco was in better condition.
Mac
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Re: New pics of an old corrazina. Analysis?
I think it rather more looks like they failed to teach themselves to weld.Johann ColdIron wrote:The museum professional in me is cringing at the "artifact mount" holding the armour in those pictures.
Must have taught themselves to weld doing it!
Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
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Re: New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered glob
Mac, Do you think there was no need for a load bearing layer in the shoulder straps or that there was one and no trace of it remains? If the later what would you speculate it was made of and how was it attached?
Re: New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered glob
I think we could do a lot worse that to assume the back defenses were like the famous "falling knight" misericord in Lincoln Cathedral.Josh W wrote:There are few questions in history whose answer I want more then I want to know what the back armour of this piece looked like when it was new...
Here is the best image I have been able to find anywhere. It is strangely reversed, but no matter....
As I see it, a series of lames form a pair of "saloon doors" which cover most of the back. These would be mounted on continuations of the breast covering. Likewise, the fauld is augmented by lames which continue around about as much as the ones for the chest. The shoulder straps would fasten to an upper back plate like the ones from Chalcis and elsewhere. From that upper back, hangs a sort of curtain of scales which serve to complete the back defense. A waist belt is visible in the back here to keep that part nice an snug, and there are a couple of buckles depicted about half way down the fauld to keep it close to the scale defense.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Re: New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered glob
I thing the canvas layer (in conjunction with the velvet layer) was the load bearing component. This is basically what we see in the skirts as well.Cet wrote:Mac, Do you think there was no need for a load bearing layer in the shoulder straps or that there was one and no trace of it remains? If the later what would you speculate it was made of and how was it attached?
It's true that the shoulders are under more stress than the skirts, and perhaps that's why the right one has failed and been replaced. I guess if I were making one of these, I would put in another layer of stuff at the shoulders.... just to be sure.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Re: New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered glob
Amanda,Amanda M wrote:There is also a really ugly looking roll and someone mentioned when I posted them on facebook that it was probably a bad later modification.
Do you mean the neck hem of the breastplate? It is nasty, but I think it's original. It looks like the metal was slaggy, and did not take well to being put in tension while turning the hem.
Besides, if you have that sort of trouble with your hem, what better thing to do than cover it all with velvet?
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
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Re: New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered glob
Thanks everybody for your thoughts and comments. I feel like I have a lot more to go on now when I try and put my new gear together.
Re: New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered glob
Amanda,
Let me put in a plea for the solid breast, rather than making it open down the front.
The front opening armor is easier to get yourself in and out of, but it is more difficult to make. It seems like it ought to be easier because you have less shaping to do. The problem is that you then have the task of making all those "squirmy" parts fit with one another while at the same time fitting you. That's harder than it sounds, and very seldom comes out looking right.
If you are set on the idea of making a front opener, I recommend making the breastplate in one piece, and then cutting it in two with a jigsaw. Make a bit too wide, and then cut it about a half inch off center to get a one inch overlap.
Mac
Let me put in a plea for the solid breast, rather than making it open down the front.
The front opening armor is easier to get yourself in and out of, but it is more difficult to make. It seems like it ought to be easier because you have less shaping to do. The problem is that you then have the task of making all those "squirmy" parts fit with one another while at the same time fitting you. That's harder than it sounds, and very seldom comes out looking right.
If you are set on the idea of making a front opener, I recommend making the breastplate in one piece, and then cutting it in two with a jigsaw. Make a bit too wide, and then cut it about a half inch off center to get a one inch overlap.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
- Amanda M
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Re: New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered glob
I am actually not making the metal parts. I don't have the experience or tools but I have done lots of assembly so I am trading for the pieces I can't make.
Re: New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered glob
Thank you for putting these photos together and for the discussion so far. I have not had the time to dig through Goll's work. This breastplate (and a back) is on my to-do list. I have a few photos from the display in Munich, but it is behind glass and against a wall.
Best regards,
Jacob
Best regards,
Jacob
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Re: New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered glob
I looked through ALL of the photos the other day and pulled out some stuff of particular interest to me. I wish it were more easily searchable. I grabbed some other pictures of fabric covered breastplate type of armors as well because they are all sort of clumped together in the Pinterest album, but this one is the best of all of them I think because a lot of the covering is intact and many of the other bits are just pieces.
Re: New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered glob
Amanda,
That sounds like a great project, to gather up all the covered breast/corrazina pics into one place. Have you considered putting them on a pinterest page or some other sort of album we could all see? The result would be a valuable resource.
Mac
That sounds like a great project, to gather up all the covered breast/corrazina pics into one place. Have you considered putting them on a pinterest page or some other sort of album we could all see? The result would be a valuable resource.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
- Amanda M
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Re: New pics of museum piece. Analysis? (Fabric covered glob
Sure I can do that. I will post the link when it's ready.