Discussion of extant mail standards

[Tom B.]

Mac and I have been discussing mail standards privately for a bit but I thought it might be better to discuss them here to let others participate and/or follow the discussion.

(I also have created another related thread Discussion Pizan vs Standard: what is the difference?)

Here are some observations that we have made (not all are new observations):
1. Buckles and straps seem to be riveted to mail not sewn (at least on surviving examples)
2. Buckles and straps are not located as expected.
Buckle is usually on wearers left and quite far from the overlap in back.
3. Typical overlap direction in back is wearers right side over the left.
4. Many examples have a hook located near the top corner of the underlapped edge.
Presumably this would hook over the top edged of the overlapping mail.

Here is a good example showing many of these items (hook is broken)
click on image for high resolution version:

[Tom B.]

[Tom B.]

I am struggling to understand the proper overlap of the mail in the back and the best way to handle the attached padding layers.

I have planned on about 1" of overlap at the neck band.
Looking at a person wearing the standard from the back.
I have planned on the neck band on the left to overlap the right.
Am I overlapping in the right direction?
This one from the Met seems to be set-up the other way.
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/a ... _69954.jpg


The left hand side will have straps riveted near the edge.
The right hand side will have buckles set back from the edge a bit due to the over lap
The cape portion is closed with hooks.
The hooks are on the right set back from the edge a bit.
If the over lap of the cape tapers to 0" at the bottom edge it forms a nice looking point.
Is this the right thing to do?

I am planning on the padded liner for the neck band going all the way to the edge with all layers on the right side .
The left side having reduced layers (maybe none) for the overlap.

I also am thinking of putting a hook on the top edge of the under lap to catch the top edge and help keep everything lined up nice and neat.
I have seen these on the 16th century cape / bishop mantels.
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/origi ... 5f88b6.jpg

There maybe one on this standard in Chicago.
http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/ar ... arch_id=63
That also could be what the broken fragment riveted near the edge on the Met example is.

Looking through the above examples and a few more.
http://www.clevelandart.org/art/1916.1584

It looks like the over lap may be opposite what I was planning on most of the examples (If I can trust the photos have not been reversed).
Also some times the buckle is on the overlap side some times on the under lap.
Lastly offset from the edge on the underlap side (either buckle or strap) seems to be extreme.
Why would this be so?
Does this indicate a larger overlap or just allow more adjustability?

Thanks,
Tom

[Alecks]

Thank you for sharing, this is quite interesting!

[Keegan Ingrassia]

At first I was a bit confused about the hook on the underlapped flap. In my head, it seemed easier to have the outer flap hook over the underlap. But now, I see the logic behind it. The hook keeps the underlap from falling down and slumping uncomfortably, and the strap and buckle over it keeps everything tidy and secure.

[Tom B.]

At first I was a bit confused about the hook on the underlapped flap. In my head, it seemed easier to have the outer flap hook over the underlap. But now, I see the logic behind it. The hook keeps the underlap from falling down and slumping uncomfortably, and the strap and buckle over it keeps everything tidy and secure.

I had seen the hooks for years but this 16th century cape / bishops mantel is what really got me to thinking about this.

[Tom B.]

Here is a pic of a 16th century painting showing the hook.
The cape / bishops mantel is lined in the red cloth, we can it see poking out from the overlap and the top edge. The hook is attached to the inner layer of mail and is hooked over the outter layer. This is exactly what I hoped to find. Proof of the hooks usage and how the liner is treated at the overlap. Thank you Mac for having me take another closer look at the picture.

Alessandro de' Medici, Duke of Florence (1510-1537), called 'il Moro' the Moor, the Illegitimate son of Lorenzo II de'Medici

Click to see a higher resolution image


I suspect that we won't find a 15th century image showing this sort of detail on a standard, especially since the action is going on in the back.

[Mac]

This is a splendid picture. It shows that the collar of the mail is lined, and that the lining continues in the overlap.

Mac

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

One often sees all sorts of leather cord, thin leather, and cloth stuff attached to North African mail to make it hold its shape or work better in some way, and it seems that European mail often had similar things going on.

[Mac]

Drew, of "parts and technical" sent me a pic this morning of a guy with a mail collar in an Italian portrait medal. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to post that; but in the mean time, here's another example.

I don't know if the vertical "bar" across the strap is the buckle frame or a hook. In any case, it looks like this thing fastens on the side.



There's a zoomable image here http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... C_1447.JPG

Mac

[Mac]

Here is the one Drew sent me. It looks like two narrow straps and a hook. Again, it must be a side-opener.



Mac

[Steve S.]

I keep seeing things over the years that make me really think that maille may have been typically a lined garment.

Steve

[Ernst]

Online example from the Odescalchi collection
http://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/12/59/24/45/collec10.jpg

[Tom B.]

Another type of closure that I have been curious about for years is this one:
(again the extant examples that I know of are all on 16th century mantels / capes)

Click to load high resolution zoomable image


Here a different closure on standards shown on one of the Pastrana Tapestries (1470s).
These are probably hinge type closures with a removable pin, which is quite different from the extant cape closures.
(Here is a thread with more explanation & images from these tapestries: The Pastrana Tapestries: Portuguese 1470's)

[Tom B.]

Here is the best photo I have seen to show how the clasps on the capes / mantels work.

[Tom B.]

Here are a couple more images from the Pastrana Tapestries:

Note how the trailing "tails" of the mail are left to hang open.
There are many examples of this in these tapestries.


Note the closure methods using points.

[Ernst]

Those hanging tails of mail don't seem indicative of a sewn-in lining, do they?

[Mac]

It certainly suggests that the tails are not lined. There might still be a sewn-in lining of the collar portion.

Mac

[Tom B.]

I posted this over in the pisan vs standard thread but it is probably more relevant here.

Here is the object from the first link below.
An odd bit of plate combined with mail.
Note the buckle and strap placement just like several other standards.
Most noteworthy for me is the hook!
It is shaped very much like the one I posted here in my Extant Standard Thread (Alessandro de' Medici, Duke of Florence (1510-1537))

I am mining the DHM Object Database
Their photos are bad

http://www.dhm.de/datenbank/img.php?img ... 8&format=1

Several nice objects but you can't get much detail
http://www.dhm.de/datenbank/dhm.php?seite=8&current=0

[Mac]

That's a really cool find, Tom. It goes to show that there more things fixed 'tween helmet and breast than are dreamt of in Horatio's philosophy.

I wonder how the mail is attached.

Mac

[Tom B.]

That's a really cool find, Tom. It goes to show that there more things fixed 'tween helmet and breast than are dreamt of in Horatio's philosophy.

I wonder how the mail is attached.

Mac

They have some interesting objects at the DHM website but the photos are very poor.
Only one low resolution photo per object and it is out of focus more often than not.
So unfortunately it is impossible to tell how the mail is attached.

I think that there was a bevor, with mail attached to its back, in Goll's thesis.
I will have to dig it up and see if it looks plausible.

Tom

[Tom B.]

Bevors with mail

Goll's ID #3123, 3074, 3089, & 3097
Photos later my laptop battery is running low.

PDF for 3123

[Tom B.]

Here are some photos with links to their full PDFs, most with more photos there.

Click on the photos to open the associated PDF.

#3074



#3089


#3123
PDF for 3123

#3097

[Ernst]

I really wish there were a more detailed study of mail attached to plate. It would make dating the mail much easier, but requires an inter-disciplinary interaction between mail and plate folks which has often been lacking.

[worldantiques]

I really wish there were a more detailed study of mail attached to plate. It would make dating the mail much easier, but requires an inter-disciplinary interaction between mail and plate folks which has often been lacking.

Ernst, you are exactly right, how many time have you seen mail photographed from a distance or from only the front and not the back side which is often the most important view when it comes to dating mail.

[Tom B.]

Online example from the Odescalchi collection
http://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/12/59/24/45/collec10.jpg

Thanks for that link.
Another hook!

[Ernst]

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/44538/44 ... tm#b_fig02

Fig. 2.—Standard Collar of Mail. Royal Artillery Institution.

[Tom B.]

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/44538/44 ... tm#b_fig02

Fig. 2.—Standard Collar of Mail. Royal Artillery Institution.

Your link is not working for me, what book is that from?

[Ernst]

Armour in England by V. A. Farquharson and J. Starkie Gardner also appears in John Starkie Gardner's 1897 work.
https://books.google.com/books?id=ioorA ... rd&f=false

[Tom B.]

Armour in England by V. A. Farquharson and J. Starkie Gardner also appears in John Starkie Gardner's 1897 work.
https://books.google.com/books?id=ioorA ... rd&f=false

That was my guess, I was just looking at it yesterday!
I had an issue trying to share a link to an image in the book then myself.
A facebook friend was interested in late 15th century armets.
I couldn't open the link, maybe it is fine and just my phone.

Link works from my computer now.

[Tom B.]

A couple more of the Italian medallions showing standards:
(from Andrea Carloni's wonderful collection of photos)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea_ca ... 714334925/

[Tom B.]

Another nice hook, this time on a shirt in the Wallace collection.

[Tom B.]

1467 - 'reliquary with Charles the Rash and St. George' (Gérard Loyet), Lille, Cathédrale Saint-Paul, Liège, province of Liège, Belgium

https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 25/sizes/l

Two different fastening systems.

[Tom B.]

Ernst spotted one of these "mail + Plate" neck defenses in one of the paintings we are discussing in another thread.

I posted this over in the pisan vs standard thread but it is probably more relevant here.

Here is the object from the first link below.
An odd bit of plate combined with mail.
Note the buckle and strap placement just like several other standards.
Most noteworthy for me is the hook!
It is shaped very much like the one I posted here in my Extant Standard Thread (Alessandro de' Medici, Duke of Florence (1510-1537))

I am mining the DHM Object Database
Their photos are bad

http://www.dhm.de/datenbank/img.php?img ... 8&format=1

Several nice objects but you can't get much detail
http://www.dhm.de/datenbank/dhm.php?seite=8&current=0

[Tom B.]

I have started gathering images onto a Pinterest Board.
Medieval mail collars both extant & in art

Feel free to point me to others.