Discussion of extant mail standards

[Mac]

Splendid!

Mac

[Tom B.]

Here is a nice standard with strap, buckle & hook.
It is oddly displayed, partially open, backwards, over a mail shirt.

[Ernst]

It seems to be a common trend to see this displayed with the hook acting as a retainer for the strap, rather than over the mail holding the collar level at the overlap. I would presume the exceptionally long leather is modern repair also.

[Tom B.]

Here is Andrea Mantegna, “St. George”, Gallerie dell’Accademia, Venice 1468
Is this one of the "hinge style" closures in the front or something else?
The mail and the edge of the lining don't seem to indicate a seam or overlap.
Maybe it is just an odd decoration?

[Mac]

It looks like one of those hinge-like fasteners, but it is strange that it would be in the front, rather than in the back.

Mac

[Gustovic]

There are horizontal lines in the middle of the thing, so I would say hinge.

And just look at how much detail there is there!!! The artist took time to put highlights on the rivet heads of the mail!

[Keegan Ingrassia]

It certainly looks like a hinge. I don't see why they'd put a hinge there as a non-functional decoration...if it is functional, it seems that the pin would need to slide down to remove it, since there is no exposed pin head to grab onto at the neck hem.

[Tom B.]

I quickly made a simple closure type hook today from 0.04" 4130.
Here is a shot of it after hardening and tempering.


There are several extant examples of simple hooks like this, here is one from the St. Wenceslaus mail

[Ernst]

It certainly looks like a hinge. I don't see why they'd put a hinge there as a non-functional decoration...if it is functional, it seems that the pin would need to slide down to remove it, since there is no exposed pin head to grab onto at the neck hem.

The pin can be fixed in one side if the other side has open ends. Still, such a fastener would have to be very precise for a good fit.

[Mac]

I don't think this one got posted yet. It's Goll's 3171 from Worcester.



Mac

[Tom B.]

Wow, thanks Mac!
Not sure how I missed that, looks like the best preserved one.

More photos in this
PDF for Goll 3171

[Jason Grimes]

Awesome, wouldn't that be the holy grail of mail padding?

[Jason Grimes]

Hey Tom,

Here is one I found. It's funny, now that I know what I'm looking at, it has been rotated and used as a clasp on this display.

DSC00410.jpg (95.77 KiB) Viewed 4765 times

[Ernst]

Looks like a collar on a shirt rather than a standard/pisane/gorget of mail.

[Jason Grimes]

Darn I think I posted this in the wrong thread? It is another example of a hook that Tom was looking for.

[Ernst]

A75 from the Vienna Rustkammer? I don't think Tom has a separate thread just for the hooks, so I suspect it's in the right place. I've bear as much responsibility as anyone for derailing the thread from standards alone.

[Tom B.]

I have a couple of standards for sale over in classifieds, Historically Patterned 6mm mail standards ready to ship, I made these based on some of the research in this thread.

[Ernst]

Here's one for you, Tom. Photos appear to be from Medka, who has previously posted images of a mail coif from Bulgaria. This is reportedly in the Kavarna History Museum in Bulgaria, and is associated with the Battle of Varna in Novenber 1444. Like the British Museum example, it has a 6:1 weave in the collar. Though it is heavily corroded, this can be confirmed along the upper edge, where rings are seen to go through three, rather than two rings below.

http://medka.snimka.bg/other/muzeyi-kav ... 69.4971817

Kavarna Standard-2.jpg (56.72 KiB) Viewed 4660 times

http://medka.snimka.bg/other/muzeyi-kav ... 69.4971819

Kavarna Standard-3.jpg (41.7 KiB) Viewed 4660 times

http://medka.snimka.bg/other/muzeyi-kav ... 69.4971821

Kavarna Standard-5.jpg (51.97 KiB) Viewed 4660 times

[Tom B.]

Thanks Mart!

I have been looking for photos of that one, being the only other 6 in 1 collar I have ever seen.

[Ernst]

The Iron Age Tiefenau 6:1 fragment is about the right width for a collar (or a myriad of other things). There's the 6:1 breast on the Kremlin's kolchuga, Кольчуга 4469, but every new example is one more rarity.

[Tom B.]

I have created a new thread for discussion of mail bevors:

Researching Mail Bevors

[Ernst]

Perhaps a pisan rather than a standard, depending on your definitions, though the collar is made of heavier wire:
Big image: http://catview.historiska.se/catview/me ... res/103073
Data page: http://mis.historiska.se/mis/sok/fid.asp?fid=121651

Mail Collar
Iron and Bronze
Length: 60 cm (measured at base, presumably)
Breadth: 19 cm
Ring outer diameter: c.10 mm

Ringkrage i två större och åtskilliga mindre stycken
Den är till större delen gjord av sammansmidda järn-ringar, men längs halssidan är den kantad med brons-ringar vars yttre diameter är 9mm. Längs denna sida i kragen äro ringarna grövre än de övriga på en bredd av 5,5 cm.. På andra långsidan finnas även tva rader brons-ringarehuru något ljusare och tunnare än på motsatta sidan

Google Trans to English:
Ring Collar two larger and several smaller pieces
It is largely made of the same forged iron rings, but along the neck side is lined with bronze rings whose outer diameter is 9mm. Along this side the collar rings are coarser than the other at a width of 5.5 cm .. On the other long side are also two rows of bronze rings how something lighter and thinner than the opposite side

[wcallen]

I think these uploaded OK.

I took some large images of the A-9 standard in the Wallace while I was there playing with the bucklers or John.

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-9-a.jpg
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-9-b.jpg
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-9-c.jpg
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-9-d.jpg

Wade

[Tom B.]

Thanks for the additional photos

[worldantiques]

Here's one for you........ it has a 6:1 weave in the collar.[/b] Though it is heavily corroded, this can be confirmed along the upper edge, where rings are seen to go through three, rather than two rings below.

This forums image handling capabilities needs to be upgraded, 850 pixels max is so old school, every forum I am involved with has image handling upgrades that can be applied.


Ernst, I cant see anything specific in this mess, are you sure your seeing 6 in 1?


6 in 1 example.


Large image. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... 377dca.jpg



Large image. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... 0f49aa.jpg

[Ernst]

The designated ring goes through three below it.

[Sean M]

Art Institute of Chicago, George F. Harding Collection, 1982.3044 is now on display and easy to photograph. It definitely has both a buckle and a hook.

[Tom B.]

Art Institute of Chicago, George F. Harding Collection, 1982.3044 is now on display and easy to photograph. It definitely has both a buckle and a hook.

I have not yet made it to their new setup and have only seen this standard in a few blurry Facebook photos.
Here is a link to the Art Institute's page for 1982.3044

http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/artwork/116867

[Sean M]

In these discussion, the possibility of kettle hats with a 'standing camail' (vs. bascinets with 'hanging camails' like the Lyle bascinet) has come up.

- Une colerette appellée faux camail de fer ou d'acier, garnier de courroyes de cuir ou tresses de chanvre garnies de fer ou de léton, garni d'étoffes de cendal, de toille de lin, de chanvre, de saye de bourre de soye, cousu o fil et aiguille (Lobineau, Histoire de Bretagne, tom. II, col. 672)

https://archive.org/stream/glossairearc ... 0/mode/2up

A little collar called false camail of iron or steel, garnished with straps of leather or braids of hemp garnished with iron or latoun, with saye of bourre of silk, cousu or thread and aiguillet.