Haubergeon sleeve length and vambraces in the 14th c.

[Konstantin the Red]

Many of the over-mail pieces suggest cuirbouilli to me rather than metal. It starts with their presence over mail, and their shape is suggestive of a material being formed not as metal was being formed then -- large-radius-curve cutouts, and nothing whatsoever articulated to/from them. Distinctive as hell, really -- of something. They seemed, then, disinclined to reproduce metal-lame articulations in leather, and look at that, no lames appear with those that would correspond with, say, SCA leather-lame construction -- which while dramatic looking may not exactly be the last word in articulating protection of the places it's used on.

Particularly shown on Schenck von Erbach, +1373; less certainly Landschad von Steinach, +1377; Voit von Rieneck, +1379, noting the huge and smooth expanse of his arm reinforces; and whatever's on the Denmark metal-and-marble man, I'd think that short vambrace-like bit with the petal-dags is not of steel -- but leather? fabric? Other parts of his arm are clearly in plate; reckon them pointed to that sleeve of whatever flexible material?

I'd like to see a more head-to-heel pic or two of him, that's for sure, and even a date and an ID/location?

Continuing re other possible cuir arms: Berlinger von Berlichingen, +1377 possibly equipped with bazu-type vambs with rerebraces which only barely meet them (sounds like a helpful example of what to end up with for 1370s continental reinforced arms); Gerhard von Rieneck, +1382, an example of arms that are NOT cuir, for you can see an articulation rivet connecting the vamb to a semi-floating cop that doesn't seem to articulate with the rerebrace which is also of unconventional form; Dieter von Hohenberg I dunno -- intriguingly pinstriped -- want a closer look; Heinrich von Ehrebach, I'd like to meet his hair stylist!

The arm reinforces that are clearly of plate have a characteristic depiction of an assembly of narrow strapping and rivets. The ones that seem a little different show a characteristic comparatively quite broad strap, complete smooth joining of this strap and the rest of the piece, and without rivets, nor even in any of these cases any apparent means of opening about these straps. Did they simply slide the arm into these, armoring up? -- they seem well located to do so, and all occur in their variations on a form, some greater, some smaller, upon the upper arm.

How the famous German style splint arm defenses fit with all this will want some study; did one supersede the other or were they rival contemporaries?

Looks like you found something fruitful here. Their concentration in the decade of the 1370s seems significant. While these examples seem primarily German, would there be no French, Low Countries, or English ones?

[Gustovic]

You just need to click the link in my post =).

Duke Christoffer
1363
Roskilde Cathedral, Roskilde, Sjælland, Denmark

[Mac]

On the other hand, there are no mail garments that I know of which stop just past a fitted elbow. I have tailored a couple of habergeons like this, but always felt guilty about it.

Well. It's pretty clear that I was wrong about that one. It looks like the early 14th C was full of mail shirts with 3/4 length, close fitted sleeves.

It's pretty easy to imagine that this is what continues to be used later in the century when the mail disappears into the vambraces.

Mac

[Mac]

and whatever's on the Denmark metal-and-marble man, I'd think that short vambrace-like bit with the petal-dags is not of steel -- but leather? fabric? Other parts of his arm are clearly in plate; reckon them pointed to that sleeve of whatever flexible material?

Here's how I interpret what's going on with Christopher of Denmark's arms...
--full length close fitter mail sleeves
--fabric sleeves with dagged edges which stop just before the wrists
--rerebrace of (probably) leather



The issue is confused by how the effigy appears to have been pieced together, and there is a seam right where one might expect a vambrace to start.

Mac

[Tom B.]

On the other hand, there are no mail garments that I know of which stop just past a fitted elbow. I have tailored a couple of habergeons like this, but always felt guilty about it.

Well. It's pretty clear that I was wrong about that one. It looks like the early 14th C was full of mail shirts with 3/4 length, close fitted sleeves.

It's pretty easy to imagine that this is what continues to be used later in the century when the mail disappears into the vambraces.

Mac

Well, at least you no longer need to feel guilty about your use of 3/4 sleeves.

[Konstantin the Red]

Duke Christoffer 1363
Roskilde Cathedral, Roskilde, Sjælland, Denmark

http://travelphotobase.com/i/DK/DK5091.JPG

Tunnel vervelles on funny basc and a pretty good general view

And from the left side, pic quality not as good.

Overhead view.

[Mac]

Here's another shirt with elbow length sleeves and a funny flap.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/98015679@ ... 8096266803

https://www.flickr.com/photos/98015679@ ... 8096266803

Mac

[Ernst]

Thanks, Mac. Interestingly also given a 15th century dating.

[Tom B.]

I can't decide if this guy's shirt like like one of those or not.
https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/46414289@N02/4261767575/

[Ernst]

I don't think so, Tom. The sleeves look pretty straight to me, though the bifurcated mittens are neat, as well as the Lubeck-jack like armor on the "sleeping guard" behind.

[Tom B.]

I don't think so, Tom. The sleeves look pretty straight to me, though the bifurcated mittens are neat, as well as the Lubeck-jack like armor on the "sleeping guard" behind.

I need to quit posting stuff from my phone.
They do look straight just a bit past elbow and baggy, not fitted.
I love almost all of the "sleeping guard" painting/drawings/carvings, almost always some interesting details to see.

[Tom B.]

There are at least a couple 3/4 sleeve shirts in the Wallace collection.
My Wallace Collection thumb drive is in my desk at work so I don't have any info just the pics.

[Paladin74]

Lot Nr. 67
A Gothic full armour for the field
------------
Fine German mail shirt (Haubergeon), 15th century, formed of close-set rows of riveted flattened iron rings alternating with rows of flattened butted rings, of slightly smaller diameter at the sides, the hem and the cuff borders of riveted latten rings, as three rows and a single row respectively, extending to the mid-thigh and over the elbow, with neck-opening closed by a small overlapping flap (the neck now fitted with an Indian standing collar of mail reinforced with leather, 18th /19th century), the sleeves with flared openings unusually extended at sharp right angles over the outer sides of the elbow, and preserved in very fine and almost wholly undamaged condition throughout (two or three rings missing over the top of the right shoulder). Length (excluding collar) 78.5 cm.

Emphasis mine- am I reading that correctly or is my modern mind misunderstanding? Flattened riveted rings alternating with rows of butted (non-welded, non riveted) rings?

[Ernst]

A catalog error. Clearly the rings are solids as seen in the photographs.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... 0c2a63.jpg

[Paladin74]

A catalog error. Clearly the rings are solids as seen in the photographs.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... 0c2a63.jpg

Pesky humans and their penchant for errors.

[Len Parker]

More 3/4 length sleeves http://terra-teutonica.ru/topic1026.html

[Mac]

It seems like close fitting 3/4 sleeves are more common than I thought, but I still don't think we have seen any that clearly have tailored elbows. I can't imaging trying to stuff an un-tailored sleeve into a vambrace... but perhaps that's in the nature of the modern Indian mail. With authentic mail, it might not be so bad.

Mac

[Mac]

The sleeve on this mail shirt from Churburg might have a tailored elbow, but it's impossible to tell. Unless I misremember, this is one of the Churburg mail pieces that went missing in the '50s.




Mac

[worldantiques]

Lot Nr. 67
A Gothic full armour for the field
------------
Fine German mail shirt (Haubergeon), 15th century, formed of close-set rows of riveted flattened iron rings alternating with rows of flattened butted rings, of slightly smaller diameter at the sides, the hem and the cuff borders of riveted latten rings, as three rows and a single row respectively, extending to the mid-thigh and over the elbow, with neck-opening closed by a small overlapping flap (the neck now fitted with an Indian standing collar of mail reinforced with leather, 18th /19th century), the sleeves with flared openings unusually extended at sharp right angles over the outer sides of the elbow, and preserved in very fine and almost wholly undamaged condition throughout (two or three rings missing over the top of the right shoulder). Length (excluding collar) 78.5 cm.

Emphasis mine- am I reading that correctly or is my modern mind misunderstanding? Flattened riveted rings alternating with rows of butted (non-welded, non riveted) rings?

I have seen the term "butted" being used on more than one European auction site. I could be that they were trying to differentiate between solid punched links and welded links which would in fact be butted and the ends welded together. It could also be a translation problem, or lack of properly used terminology. Auction house knowledge is very erratic, I recently saw a 1800s split link hauberk being sold as a riveted 16th century hauberk, when I informed the auction house of their error they changed the description to split link mail but kept the 16th century date .