Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets)

[Zetheros]

I don't think it's leather armour, I think it's either leather-covered steel, colored felt/linen covered steel armour, or painted armour. It could be blued armour, but the artist didn't make the colored armour appear shiny, it's matte.

Leather armour is inherently weak; anything goes through it, and it's only effective against bludgeoning if it's thick enough, unless the bludgeoning weapon has spikes on it, which would be cheap and simple to add.

Suits of armour are very labor intensive, especially a full suit. Leather armour, even with metal banding to protect against slashes, would break in combat, since the metal banding appears to be thin, and full of holes for rivets. This would make the banding easy to bend and snap with a swing of a weapon, or, if one is using a well made sword, will cleave right through the thin metal and leather. So why spend all that time making a suit of leather, and flattening all those rivets, if it'll just break in a few skirmishes?

Assuming it's rigid boiled leather, it would go soft eventually on the battlefield from attacks, moisture and subsequently rot, becoming uncomfortable to wear fairly quickly. The number of rivets would only hasten this effect, because of increased surface area on the leather, and weak/stress points.

I don't know what the cost of leather was compared to the cost of steel in biblical times, but if the cost of leather was higher, then there is really no reason to pay more for a vastly less protective product.

I like these threads! They're very interesting.

[Russ Mitchell]

Zetheros, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Leather CAN be very protective, and steel CAN be weak and pointless. It depends greatly upon the quality and treatments. I've put a not-particularly-sharp back-blade of an axe through a 1.5mm mild steel breastplate on a casual effortless swing (literally a thoughtless casual tap walking around an apartment that I had NO idea was going to ruin my $200 breastplate ), and am entirely confident that if I needed to, I could thrash one thoroughly with the business end and some elan. (whether it'd actually hurt the guy inside it is another question). On the low end, thickness of leather makes it much harder to penetrate (as anybody who's sewn the really heavy stuff can attest -- there's a *world* of difference between sewing 6oz leather and 10oz.

On the high end, Chris Dobson in England has made hardened leather that would absolutely shrug off a wide variety of real-world blows. Quality steel would be at least as protective and notably lighter, but quality steel wasn't always available, and as Willliams in The Knight and The Blast Furnace aptly demonstrates, a lot of early plate armor was made of surprisingly soft stuff.

In the artwork, some of this is clearly leather over metal. Some of this is clearly thick unhardened leather. Some of it is ambiguous.

[Tibbie Croser]

Regarding the "bulbous" pauldrons, since armor styles echo fashion, could they be meant to reflect mahoitered doublet sleeves?

However, a larger question for me is to what extent the odd-looking armors are based on any real armor. Are they instead an artist's conception of elements of classical and Eastern armor? In other words, the medieval artistic version of fantasy armor?

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Zetheros, I've made some hardened leather that would be pretty tough to cut through unless if a blow was carefully aimed - something not every strike in real combat had the opportunity of being. I also know folks who have had the same pieces of hardened leather armor beat on in SCA contexts for years on end without damage or repair, in all sorts of weather and sweat and grime. However, the main fact is that we know that medieval people used leather armor. There are surviving bits, and there are illustrations and sculptures clearly depicting its use, and there is documentation of its keep in inventories and of its use in battle. If it were not functional, then they wouldn't have taken the time.

Tibbie, the association with the sleeves of popular garments probably something to do with the bulbous pauldrons, but what about the eastern context you mention? Why would contemporary European sleeves dictate how easterners are depicted? Functionally, what about the use of the reinforcing bands on most of them? Why was the shape taken up with some apparent consideration by the King Rene armor which we know is leather? It's certainly easier to mold a bowl out of leather than it is to make a series of complicated lames fit together, and that's rather where I'm coming from on this one...

-Gerhard

[Russ Mitchell]

Indeed one can posit that the thick-sectioned splints make such an armor notably more protective.

[lorenzo2]

Here is some text from King Rene. Note the rods that can be attached to the armour. I suspect a better translation might be sewed than glued.

In Brabant, Flanders and Hainault, and in those countries near the Germanies, they are accustomed to arms themselves differently for a tourney. They take a demi-pourpoint of two layers, not more, padded in the back and over the abdomen; and then over this a bracer, four fingers thick and stuffed with cotton. Over this they put on vambraces and rerebraces of cuir boulli, reinforced with five or six small rods the thickness of a finger, glued on, that run the length of the arm just to the joints. And for the shoulders and the elbow, the rerebraces and vambraces are made like those shown above, except that they are bigger and heavier; and they are well padded in front. And a double layer of cloth holds the rerebrace and the vambrace together like a mail sleeve. Over all this they wear a light brigandine with a perforated breast like that shown below. And as for the head armor, they have a great bascinet with a camail without a visor, and they attach the camail under the brigandine all around, to the breast and on the shoulders with strong laces. And over all this they put a great helm made all in one piece of cuir bouilli and perforated below, the size of a wooden trencher, and the eyeslot is barred with iron in a grid three fingers square, which is attached in front by a chain to the breast of the brigandine, so that you may hang it from the saddle to refresh youself, and put it on again when you wish.

[Mac]

Here is some text from King Rene. Note the rods that can be attached to the armour. I suspect a better translation might be sewed than glued.

About a year ago, I asked the translator of that document about the choice of the work "glued". Dr. Bennet said that she chose the first entry in the dictionary she was working with, and did not consider it more fully. Looking at it again, she thought she should have chosen "attached".

Mac

[Konstantin the Red]

However, a larger question for me is to what extent the odd-looking armors are based on any real armor. Are they instead an artist's conception of elements of classical and Eastern armor? In other words, the medieval artistic version of fantasy armor?

Dr. Toby Capwell says that in its way was exactly the case -- the whole "Antique Heroic" style of armor and armoring was basically a Renaissance-era revival of motifs they thought of as Classical, and the elements of it are common enough and extensive enough to make such armours obvious, be they in art about ancient times fifteen or more centuries before the Renaissance and its rediscovery of Roman and Greek Classical art and artistry, or in the Ren-era arms and armor equivalent: shoulder and knee cops that really were repoussé lions' masks, medallions in an Imperial taste, various romanesque details, usually pteruges, frequently enough applied to parts of armors alla romana that would have raised the eyebrows of the Caesars. Whatever the Latin may be for "Um... that might work." Heu. And let's not neglect the barbute among helmets, for just one -- and early -- example.

Seems the Renaissance got a look at enough art depicting the Roman miles that naturally enough a lot of rather legionnaire harness -- running a gamut from "rather" to "sketchy" -- began appearing in art, and such was quickly pressed into service to depict other cultures' war-gear, notably and primarily the Near East, but also all the way to India and Prester John too. Generally, the farther out the strangers equipped, the more heroic-exotic their equipment too. Wondrous friends, even more wondrous foes, and the just plain wondrous, period.

If you want to think of it as fifteenth-century Renaissance science fiction, you're on the right track -- just as modern sci-fi lives in the same place as the old wonder-story. It's its modern literary equivalent.

And the old artists were prepared to illustrate the tales.

[Len Parker]

There's a couple of gauntlets that were once material covered that have packed rows of small dome headed rivets that have the same look as this. I think this is material over metal.

[Galleron]

However, a larger question for me is to what extent the odd-looking armors are based on any real armor. Are they instead an artist's conception of elements of classical and Eastern armor? In other words, the medieval artistic version of fantasy armor?

Dr. Toby Capwell says that in its way was exactly the case -- the whole "Antique Heroic" style of armor and armoring was basically a Renaissance-era revival of motifs they thought of as Classical, and the elements of it are common enough and extensive enough to make such armours obvious, be they in art about ancient times fifteen or more centuries before the Renaissance and its rediscovery of Roman and Greek Classical art and artistry, or in the Ren-era arms and armor equivalent: shoulder and knee cops that really were repoussé lions' masks, medallions in an Imperial taste, various romanesque details, usually pteruges, frequently enough applied to parts of armors alla romana that would have raised the eyebrows of the Caesars. Whatever the Latin may be for "Um... that might work." Heu. And let's not neglect the barbute among helmets, for just one -- and early -- example.

Seems the Renaissance got a look at enough art depicting the Roman miles that naturally enough a lot of rather legionnaire harness -- running a gamut from "rather" to "sketchy" -- began appearing in art, and such was quickly pressed into service to depict other cultures' war-gear, notably and primarily the Near East, but also all the way to India and Prester John too. Generally, the farther out the strangers equipped, the more heroic-exotic their equipment too. Wondrous friends, even more wondrous foes, and the just plain wondrous, period.

If you want to think of it as fifteenth-century Renaissance science fiction, you're on the right track -- just as modern sci-fi lives in the same place as the old wonder-story. It's its modern literary equivalent.

And the old artists were prepared to illustrate the tales.

I think the other thing that's going on is that the artists knew that there were old fashioned elements to jousting and tournament gear, so the artists used the splinted leather to give an old-fashioned ambiance to a scene.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

and then over this a bracer, four fingers thick and stuffed with cotton.

What do y'all think this was?

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Some sort of padded jacket, James - though perhaps just sleeves? They put on the arm harness over the top of it and only wore a "demi-pourpoint" underneath. I imagine the use of heavy padding was essential for such tourney harness, which had to take most of the sting out of combat in order to remain fresh and exciting for would-be losers, especially.

-Gerhard

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Something like this:

[Mac]

There's a couple of gauntlets that were once material covered that have packed rows of small dome headed rivets that have the same look as this. I think this is material over metal.

This is the one that comes to my mind. It's in the Royal Armoury.



Mac

[Ernst]

That makes more sense to me for interpretation of the Isenmann image.

[tiredWeasel]

Hello, I'm a new user but a longtime reader.
Anyway:
There are two "leather" armours in one of Hans Memlings "St. Ursula" paintings.
One is on the left of St. Ursula and the other one is at the right - the guy who's watching the spectacle leaning on his polearm.
And there are also are some "globose" pauldrons.


But then there are the "splinted" legs in this flemish version of "Alexander the Great".
But here we also have a stomach plate that looks like this - so one could say it means "covered" armour.
And also a hat in the same fashion. It could be some kind of covered kettle hat.

And another one.
Legs, breastplates and globose pauldrons in said fashion. There are also covered buttocks with a full leg harness - which is weird because the buttocks are never (as far as I can see) covered in this fashion in these paintings.

It looks like the "splints" in 14th art or in some examples in this thread but I don't think (without evidence) that it's supposed to be coloured leather.


€dit: I know it's OT but the construction of the rectangular tent in the foregrund is interesting. No guy ropes but most certainly internal poles or an internal frame.

[Mac]

Here are the two guys in possible leather armor from Memling's Ursula painting.



Mac

[Mac]

Here's a link to some leg armor that falls into this catagory. The painting is a Crucifixion by Simon Marmion. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kDOTWKuEqwU/U ... dier-0.jpg

Mac

[Ernst]

Since we have inventory records of leather armors, sometimes covered in fabric, and metal armors, sometimes covered in fabric or leather, how are we to determine if an image which looks like leather falls into the first category or the second?

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Welcome to the posting community, tiredWeasel. Thanks for bringing up the St. Ursula painting. And thank you Mac for the cropped images.

I have a conjecture with the figure leaning on his halberd... And would like to presume that it is leather (or brown fabric) covered steel. Otherwise I can find little reason for the great number of brass rivets apparently edging most of the visible components. So far we have no good evidence to suggest that 15th century leather armor was lined, and that if it was, there would be no reason for using rivets to accomplish the lining, when stitching would do just fine and also be easier to repair without damaging the external pieces.

However, the flutes/reinforcing ridges on his vambraces and rerebraces still offer a poser... Has Memling made them slightly off-color simply to expose them, despite their supposedly being of the same material as the rest of the top, or are they specifically some other material showing through/on top of the leather/fabric? Hmm...

-Gerhard

[Mac]

Since we have inventory records of leather armors, sometimes covered in fabric, and metal armors, sometimes covered in fabric or leather, how are we to determine if an image which looks like leather falls into the first category or the second?

I am hoping that if we can gather together enough images, references, and clever minds; that perhaps a pattern will emerge.

Mac

[Mac]

Pope Sixtus II takes leave of St Laurence by Michael Pacher c. 1460



Mac

[Mark Griffin]

couple of the mail shirts at Churburg have that triangular mail and buckle nappy (diaper to those west of cornwall) arrangements if i recall.

[tiredWeasel]

Thanks Mac (for the images) and Gerhard von Liebau (for your kind welcome)!

Below is a collage of the two images I linked in my first post:
Note that the legs look similar to the legs in Memlings painting but what are the "Schwebescheiben" (beesegaws?) on the chest and back of the colored torso armors - is this an indication of covering or of a brigandine?




€dit: I thought I saw armors like that, or very similar, in some version of "Froissant's Chronicles" - I think it was this flemish version. The images I posted are also flemish and also from the 1470s.

[Ernst]

From 1410, Giacomo Jaquerio's Crucifixion.

"Giacomo Jaquerio 05" by Diesel43 - Own work. Licensed under CC BY-SA 3.0 via Wikimedia Commons - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... rio_05.JPG

[Tom B.]

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

More data on this pic please! Is it Italian, c. 1450 or so?

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

More data on this pic please! Is it Italian, c. 1450 or so?

[Tom B.]

More data on this pic please! Is it Italian, c. 1450 or so?

Took me bit to find it.
You can zoom way in
https://www.google.com/culturalinstitut ... rt-project

[Kristoffer]

The gilded knee puzzles me. It appears to have lames that are red wich to me indicates leather (covering lames in fabric seems like a no-no) and it only has one large rivet on the side. Is it a floating knee with leather straps holding it together or is it riveted to an internal leather knee? Just one rivet on the outside and presumably one or two on the inside feels like it would just flop about a lot..

Oh, and is it a hat or a painted leather helmet he is wearing?

[Mac]

The gilded knee puzzles me. It appears to have lames that are red wich to me indicates leather (covering lames in fabric seems like a no-no) and it only has one large rivet on the side. Is it a floating knee with leather straps holding it together or is it riveted to an internal leather knee? Just one rivet on the outside and presumably one or two on the inside feels like it would just flop about a lot..

The knee cop has a pretty narrow "waist" between the body and the wing. It would be possible to put both upper and lower lames on a single rivet. I think I have seen late 16th c. elbow done that way.

Now.. I don't thing I would like to try that with leather lames because their thickness would add up quickly. So, I don't know where that leaves us.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

The lames look odd to me. I would not say leather by the look of them but it is very hard to say. Are there any examples of painted lames? I would expect the paint to come off a lame very quickly so painting them would not be a very lasting solution. I would expect that metal lames with a knee cop like that would also be bronze or gilded like the knee cop, not painted red.

If the lames are leather, could the one rivet on the knee attach to a leather strap that holds everything together? Would it work without a strap in the middle of the knee cop as well, with only straps on the side of the legs?

[Ernst]

Jan van Eyck, Crucifixion, 1435-1440, Bruges, Metropolitan Museum of Art 33.92a
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... rch/436282

MET 33.92a-lthr.jpg (98.92 KiB) Viewed 2616 times

Leather vambraces and cops on the Hungarian archer?

MET 33.92a-b.jpg (96.38 KiB) Viewed 2614 times

St. Mike's greaves in the adjacent Last Judgement, 33.92b, appear more like the traditional splint on leather.

MET 39.92b.jpg (79.68 KiB) Viewed 2614 times

[Kristoffer]

Ernst, I see at least some leather arms and something that could be a helmet. The angels outfit is also peculiar.

[Mac]

If we can trust the artist (and if we can't trust Jan Van Eyck, who can we trust) this sheds some light on the issue.

The skirt appears to be scales, and not some sort of brigandine work. So, it must be the case that they are mounted on an internal foundation, and that the free edges have a row of rivets. By extension, the curved lames covering the back are probably mounted on an internal garment as well, and the rivets we see are on the free edges.



It seems to me more likely that we are seeing leather with a border of rivets than that we are seeing something covered with leather or fabric. I say this because it seems unlikely that someone would cover individual scales that way. I don't say impossible, but unlikely.

As such, the rivets might be decorative, or they might secure an internal stiffener. We have seen what may well be external stiffeners on the edges of lames of these armors before.

I am very taken by the idea that leather armor might do well to have its edges stiffened with metal. The Japanese hardened leather armors routinely have steel stiffeners laced to the insides. This is mentioned by Kozan, http://www.worldcat.org/title/manufactu ... w=true&fq= and it is a detail that is easy to see in places where the lacquer has chipped away.

Mac