Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets)

[Ernst]

Would riveting a leather cover to each individual metal scale be more time consuming or difficult than riveting a metal reinforcement to each individual leather scale?

[Mac]

No. I guess it wouldn't, really. Those are both sort of tedious.

If, however, we were riveting a covering to every scale, I would expect to see rivets on the vertical edges as well.

Mac

[Tom B.]

I made a Pinterest Board of Extant Medieval Leather Armour and put in everything that I knew of.
I also made a post on Facebook to try and find more examples. So far I have added a couple. Please take a look and let me know if there are others.

Also I am interested in tracking down these two articles:

Brandenburgh, C.R. (2006) 'Een zeldzame leren
armbeschermer uit Roomburg' in C.R.
Brandenburgh (ed.) Archeologisch onderzoek
Roomburg 2003 (Bodemonderzoek in Leiden,
vol. 17).


Dobson, Chris, 'As Tough as Old Boots? A Study of Hardened Leather Armour, Part 1: Techniques of Manufacture'

It was part of the 2003 IAAConference Proceedings.

[Mac]

Tom,

Marianne found this for you.

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/ur ... a6eda9743e
> (see p. 127-132)

Mac

[Tom B.]

Tom,

Marianne found this for you.

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/ur ... a6eda9743e
> (see p. 127-132)

Mac

Wow!
Lots of good photos, I will have to see what I can make of a translation.
Many thanks to her

I have extracted the photos and added them to my Pinterest Board: Extant Medieval Leather Armour

The auto translation of this is very interesting and touches on a few items we have speculated on over the years; half tan & glued layers for example.
I will try to paste in some of the text in the next few days.

[Andeerz]

I am very taken by the idea that leather armor might do well to have its edges stiffened with metal. The Japanese hardened leather armors routinely have steel stiffeners laced to the insides. This is mentioned by Kozan, http://www.worldcat.org/title/manufactu ... w=true&fq= and it is a detail that is easy to see in places where the lacquer has chipped away.

Mac

I am likewise very taken by this idea. Figures 3 and 4 on page 129 of the document you just linked to us (THANKS Mac and Marianne!!! I was looking for more detailed photos of this piece!!!) show what I would say are prime examples of this! The authors imply it is decorative, but I'll be damned if that is what it really was for. Not to mention, we see this in several effigies with splinted defenses, particularly the arms at the elbow with those "bazuband" type splinted vambraces.

Also, Tom, I have a copy of "Tough as Old Boots". Would you like for me to share it with you? Or particular images? I don't think Mr. Dobson or the publisher would appreciate me posting it up here for grabs willy-nilly, though. What is proper protocol here?

[Tom B.]

(I also posted this in the Panzerhosen thread)

Do you guys think the lace up greave depicted in this manuscript are of the "panzer type" or are they leather?

Manuscript: BNF Nouvelle acquisition française 5243 Guiron le Courtois
Folio: 32v
Dating: 1370-1380
From: Milan, Italy
Holding Institution: Bibliothèque Nationale

BNF Nouvelle acquisition française 5243 Guiron le Courtois (manuscript miniatures page)

[Paladin74]

For some reason, thinking about leather covered armor brings the Rohirrim to mind. Eomer's rig was leather covered steel and damn if I don't want it for my own! My own...

[Mac]

(I also posted this in the Panzerhosen thread)

Do you guys think the lace up greave depicted in this manuscript are of the "panzer type" or are they leather?

Manuscript: BNF Nouvelle acquisition française 5243 Guiron le Courtois
Folio: 32v
Dating: 1370-1380
From: Milan, Italy
Holding Institution: Bibliothèque Nationale

BNF Nouvelle acquisition française 5243 Guiron le Courtois (manuscript miniatures page)

I think the greaves are meant to be leather, and so are the vambraces.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Horae ad usum Parisiensem , dites Heures de Charles VIII 1475-1500

Click to open the high resolution manuscript page

[Dan Howard]

Horae ad usum Parisiensem , dites Heures de Charles VIII 1475-1500

Click to open the high resolution manuscript page

This looks like an angel with golden armour. The only thing that might be leather is his shield.

[Cap'n Atli]

But the Archangel Michael is missing his Golden Helmet of Mambrino! The harness is incomplete.

[Tom B.]

Horae ad usum Parisiensem , dites Heures de Charles VIII 1475-1500

Click to open the high resolution manuscript page

This looks like an angel with golden armour. The only thing that might be leather is his shield.

While the Archangel Michael's armour is golden in color it's construction, rows of rivets alternating with solid strips, appears to be very much like the others we are discussing here.

[Tom B.]

Take a look at these greaves
ca. 1351 - 'Hartrad von Schönecken (+1351)', Abbey Church of St. Matthias, Trier, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
more pictures available here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 468647900/

[Tom B.]

Then there are of course these guys, some of my favorites:
ca. 1340-1345 - 'soldiers at the Holy Sepulchre', Cathédrale, Strasbourg, Musée de l'Oeuvre Notre-Dame, Strasbourg, France
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 2508791796

Make sure to look through them all there are tons of great tiny details.

[Tom B.]

Here is another interesting one, this time in stained glass.
I am not sure what the original coloring of the arm and leg armour was, it appears to have faded / flaked off.

ca. 1350 - 'a lord as donor', Northern France or Southern Netherlands, Koninklijke Musea voor Kunst en Geschiedenis, Brussel, Belgium

Note the cyclas (surcoat) which is cut really short in front. A feature typical in France and the Low Countries of around 1340-1350.

This knight wears his 'cyclas' over a coat-of-plates (note the studs holding the plates in place), a hauberk and a purple coat.
His knees and elbows are protected by genouilleres/couters made of gilded steel or cuir-bouilli. Greaves cover his shins, worn over mail chausses. His arms show mail sleeves with an extra protection of studded leather vambraces and rerebraces.

[Ernst]

I think that's the original coloring, as it's a grisaille window.

[Dan Howard]

While the Archangel Michael's armour is golden in color it's construction, rows of rivets alternating with solid strips, appears to be very much like the others we are discussing here.

I think there needs to be a clear distinction made between what is considered leather armour and what is considered metal armour. There was a period of a couple of centuries where pretty much all metal armour was covered with leather or cloth but just because the plates are covered with leather doesn't turn it into leather armour. It is still classed as metal armour; the leather contributes nothing to its protective capacity. For example, the armour made by Chris Dobson is leather armour, while most of the illustrations in this thread are depicting metal armour.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

That's a pretty narrow view, Dan. It's already been discussed that much of this armor may be metal covered in fabric or leather, and the purpose of this thread is to try to find distinguishing factors that may be helpful for us to understand exactly what is being portrayed in the various pieces/styles of art presented. What evidence do you have to suggest that a majority of this armor is metal covered in some other material versus it being actually made of leather? Can you see something here that none of the rest of us are noticing?

You say that for nearly two centuries "pretty much all metal armor was covered with leather or cloth" but where is the evidence of that? As far as I'm aware most of the data presented about armor in inventories gives no inclination to being covered or not, and very few literary sources point towards covered metal armor... In most surviving effigies and artwork from the 14th-15th centuries a majority of armor is clearly distinguishable as being made of metal and it looks like metal - no frills attached. It hardly seems worth mentioning that of hundreds of pieces of plate armor that survive from that period, very few show any signs of ever having been covered in material (composite pieces like gauntlets and brigandines aside). So... What are you getting at?

I'd be interested to hear what evidence you have for a majority of plate armor from the high medieval period being covered.

-Gerhard

[Tom B.]

BL Latin 757, f. 76r, Italy, 1385-1390

[Tom B.]

Thanks Gerhard for clearly stating the point of these images.
We need to gather as many images as we can showing similar construction, some of which may look more like metal armour and some which look to be leather.

Most of the time we can not tell which items are leather armour and which items are fabric / leather covered there is just not enough info.
This becomes even more muddy when we look at the few pieces of extant medieval leather armour we have.

My Pinterest Board for Extant Medieval Leather Armour

Of the 4 finds of leather lower cannons (3 extant and one now lost from WWII), 2 (Leiden & Tartu) have rows of closely spaced rivets like much of the art.
2 of the 4 (Zeeland & Leiden) seem to have had metals strips (non ferrous metal on Leiden example) attached again like we see in the art.
There also is evidence that some of the leather armour was covered with gesso and painted, this means that almost any color would be possible.

[Ernst]

BL Royal 6 E IX, fo.21r, Regia Carmina, c.1335-1340, Tuscany, Italy
A commonly reproduced miniature of "Law" (Lex): The legs being of interest in this discussion.

http://molcat1.bl.uk/IllImages/Ekta/big ... 115478.jpg

BL Royal 6 E IX fo21r-legs.jpg (97.23 KiB) Viewed 1368 times

[Tom B.]

What about the greaves in this one?

http://armourinart.com/17/21/

[Gustovic]

Wow wow wow...

Wait a minute.

No cuisses?!

[Tom B.]

Arm armour here

https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 145061815/

[Mac]

Arm armour here

https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 145061815/

.... and a cuisse as well.



Mac

[Russ Mitchell]

WHOA.
Those splints are shaped VERY similarly to splints used on Hungarian and Cuman quivers to stiffen them.

[Mac]

Russ,

Can you link to some pics of those? I did the obvious searches and had no joy of them.

Mac

[Russ Mitchell]

Unfortunately, so am I -- I'll have to go dig into my file cabinet for old archaeological articles with the grave goods.

Meantime, you can see a reconstruction here -- it's not, in my opinion, correct to the grave goods - should have more rods longitudinally, and what I saw doesn't support the "wrap at end" he does, but the narrow profile (in contrast to earlier splints) and tulip'ing out at the ends similar to this guy's cuisse is pretty much spot on for the archaeological writeups.

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/reply/ ... SaxZPnF_hk

[Tom B.]

Unfortunately, so am I -- I'll have to go dig into my file cabinet for old archaeological articles with the grave goods.

Meantime, you can see a reconstruction here -- it's not, in my opinion, correct to the grave goods - should have more rods longitudinally, and what I saw doesn't support the "wrap at end" he does, but the narrow profile (in contrast to earlier splints) and tulip'ing out at the ends similar to this guy's cuisse is pretty much spot on for the archaeological writeups.

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/reply/ ... SaxZPnF_hk

Here is a link to the same reconstruction as the one you posted but with more photos of higher resolution.
http://soldierpisti.synology.me/?p=326

A few more reconstructions I have found

[Russ Mitchell]

I sold my own, so I can't show that any more (don't think anybody at Crossroads in Time was interested or took photos - I was definitely a marginal figure where kit was concerned, heh). From my own looking at the grave goods, there should be more splints running vertically all the way round these puppies, but that's tangential -- you can see where this type of reinforcement is very different than the wider, flatter types.

[Russ Mitchell]

Notice difference between this and Mongol equivalent.

https://plus.google.com/photos/11468824 ... 7662214219

[Gerhard von Liebau]

http://i.imgur.com/2anbRiJ.jpg

That just came up in a thread on Myarmoury (concerning the sword rather than the armor). Couldn't hit "brown with metal strips and rivets" more closely... It was posted by Pieter B. and I believe it is his photograph, so I have used his original link to the image. Cheers!

-Gerhard

[Mac]

http://i.imgur.com/2anbRiJ.jpg

That just came up in a thread on Myarmoury (concerning the sword rather than the armor). Couldn't hit "brown with metal strips and rivets" more closely... It was posted by Pieter B. and I believe it is his photograph, so I have used his original link to the image. Cheers!
-Gerhard

Here's one that's small enough that it will post here.






Mac

[Tom B.]

Master of the Figdor Deposition, detail from The Martyrdom of Saint Lucy, c. 1500-10, Museum Boijmans Van Beuningen, Rotterdam, Netherlands.

Here is a bit larger one, also click to open a much bigger version