$100/hr shop rate

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Marco-borromei
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$100/hr shop rate

Post by Marco-borromei »

I kept looking for the original posting or article I read on Anvilfire.com where I learned about the $100/hr shop rate as a goal idea… but I can’t find it. Therefore, I’m going to try to recreate the explanation here, starting largely from (Internet) scratch. While I will quote other works, all mistakes are MY fault.

The premise, simply, is that you should try to charge $100 per hour of manual labor working time in your shop if (a) you want to be self employed and (b) have a simple middle class lifestyle. The closer you get to this figure, the closer you get to matching a simple middle class lifestyle working for someone else.

If you are NOT trying to be self employed as a blacksmith/armorer/leatherworker/other skilled manual labor artistan, then this does not necessarily apply to you.

If you do NOT want to target a simple middle class livestyle, then this does not necessarily apply to you.

Lets start with definitions…
Self Employed for this conversation’s purpose means that you are only working as a solo artistan, not supplementing your income with a job elsewhere. You are receiving no benefits, insurance, lottery payments, allowance, etc. from any external source.

Middle Class lifestyle for this conversation means that you make at least enough to avoid NEEDING any 3rd party charity or government support. I’m using a $35K/yr salary as a reference point simply because that’s what a budget example I found uses.

Lets assume a $35,000/yr target and look at a budget. I googled “example budget personal” and this article popped up: https://quicken.intuit.com/support/help ... 16169.html
Its important to note that I’m not interested in arguing about THIS budget example, its merely a starting point. Does the budget below FEEL like middle class to you? No?You can double it or cut it in half, I don’t care. We need to start somewhere, so $35K it is.
Your income
Let’s start with your paycheck. While you know that Uncle Sam gets first dibs on your hard-earned money, you may not be prepared for how much the government will take. For example, if you earn a salary of $35,000, you’ll likely only see about $28,356 after federal taxes, Social Security and Medicare are subtracted. That doesn’t include state taxes or any deductions from your paycheck for workplace benefits, such as medical and dental insurance or a retirement savings plan. When all is said and done, you’re likely looking at a take-home pay of—brace yourself—$25,350 or so per year. That’s a net income of about $2,100 per month.
Your expenses
Now that you know how much you can expect to bring home, you can divvy up your paycheck. Here’s a general guide to help you budget your money to make sure your expenses are covered. You may have to make some adjustments for your situation. If you spend less on housing, for example, you can put the extra money from that category toward paying down debt. The dollar figures in parentheses are based on our above example of a $35,000 gross salary with a monthly take-home pay of $2,110 per month after taxes and other deductions.
• 30% ($634) Housing
• 10% ($211) Utilities and other housing expenditures (including renters insurance)
• 15% ($317) Food (at home and away)
• 10% ($211) Transportation (including car loan)
• 10% ($211) Debt repayment (student loans and credit cards)
• 10% ($211) Saving
• 5% ($106) Clothing
• 5% ($106) Entertainment
• 5% ($106) Car insurance and miscellaneous personal expenses
In terms of dollar figures, this actually breaks down pretty close to the lines of what things will actually cost you. Housing, of course, will vary depending on your location and also on whether you live alone or with roommates. Debt repayment is another wild card for which you may have to make adjustments. But for now, let’s take a closer look at the utilities and household expenses categories.
Paycheck As a self employed artistan, that “paycheck” they mention means the total incoming payments for work you’ve sold. You need to sell $35,000 worth of whatever you make. Can you? If you are not confident you can sell $35K of your product, rethink this self employed idea.

Taxes As a self employed artistan, you will have to handle these yourself, or pay a professional to handle them for you. You can’t ignore taxes without eventually getting caught. I’m told that a swelf employed person will ususally end up paying a higher rate, so bringing in $35K might leave you with less than the $28K that article suggests.

Shop Rate If we start by assuming a 40 hour work week, most existing, successful self employed artistans will tell you that you can’t spend 100% of that time in the shop doing billable work. I’ve heard 50% tossed around as an average. You also need to spend time buying materials, picking up materials, buying tools, setting up tools, fixing tools, cleaning up shop mess, packing finished product, driving to and waiting in line at the shipper/post office, managing your bank account, creating/updating advertisements/webpages, answering emails, negotiating sales, designing products, and dealing with failures and rework. These all eat up maybe 50% of your time.

So to bring in $35,000, 20 hours a week, working 52 weeks a year, you need this bill rate:

Code: Select all

 (rounded to nearest dollar)
35,000/52=673
673/20=34
$34/hr
Nowhere near $100/hr, right? Well, do you want to go to Pennsic to sell your stuff? Or take any other 2 week vacation? Now you only have 50 weeks to generate your $35k.

Code: Select all

 (rounded to nearest dollar)
35,000/50=700
700/20=35
$35/hr
Still not an impressive leap towards that $100.
Now you’re just breaking even on the budget published above… lets look at this things you do NOT have in that budget:

You haven’t bought medical/dental/vision insurance which might otherwise come with a $35K/yr job. Getting sick or injured ends your business.

You are probably working out of your house/apartment, doing things which violate your homeowner’s insurance or rental agreement. Having an accident resulting in damage to your house/apartment can leave you homeless and end your business.

You aren’t really saving much for retirement (10% or $2532 each year means you have to wok 10 years to afford one year of retirement). There WILL come a day when you are too old, tired, or broken to keep doing this work full time, and at the current bill rate you will starve shortly after that day.

You haven’t budgeted for your tools, so you either already have them all, or you need to pay back a loan/credit card. You haven’t budget for REPLACEMENT of your tools, so a broken tool may stop your business.

You have no emergency fund or starting fund. Usually this means that to buy the materials for your first product, you had to require a deposit or advance payment. To buy the materials for your next product, you’ll need to do the same or shuffle money away from some other part of your budget. Can you be late on rent? Can you eat less? Can you just stop saving and sacrifice your retirement? When you get hurt, sick, a tool breaks, or you just make a mistake, you have no money to pay a refund or buy new materials to start over.

Let’s double the Shop Rate to $70/hr with 20 hours of shop work 50 weeks a year:

Code: Select all

 (rounded to nearest dollar)
$35/hr
70*20=1400
1400*50=70,000
 
You are now bringing in $70K before taxes. Your taxes went up, and you feel tempted to grow your budget a bit… OR you can put the extra $28k-$30k in the bank.
Now you can retire 1 year for every 1 year you work, or you can afford health insurance, or you can afford materials without risking advance payments, or you can afford to do refunds in case of an emergency. Or you can raise your standard of living and eat better food. Or you can pay someone else to handle your taxes so you don’t risk an expensive mistake. Or you can probably buy better insurance so you won’t necessarily lose your home. You can’t afford ALL of these yet.
Which can you keep living without?


Raising the Shop Rate to $100/hr with 20 hours of shop work 50 weeks a year:

Code: Select all

 (rounded to nearest dollar)
$100/hr
100*20=2000
2000*50=100,000
 
You’re now bringing in almost 3 times what you started with. Can you sell 1000 hours of your work? Are you confident enough and skilled enough to sell pieces at that cost? IF not, then you may not be able to fill a whole year with work at this rate.

If you CAN, then you are definitely able to afford more of those “extra’s” we listed earlier:
Earn 1 year of retirement for every 1 year of working
Medical/vision/dental insurance
Operating fund for the shop to buy materials and tools
Professional tax & legal help when necessary
Cash cushion for emergencies/refunds
Better home insurance or safer workshop space
Higher standard of living than the $35k/yr budget example.

Remember that many these “extra’s” are usually INCLUDED in the standard $35k/yr job: health insurance, some help with retirement savings, taxes already deducted to make tax paying less complicated, and provide their own works space/tools/emergency coverage as part of the job.

Alternatives
You can work more than 20 shop hours a week, and produce more product. Of course, this means you ALSO have to work more non-billable hours to sell it all. Few self employed people work ONLY 40 hours a week anyway, so you’ll probably be doing this anyway.

You can work SMARTER, so that you waste less time and spend fewer hours on each product. That means you can either lower your prices to maintain the same standard of living, or keep them the same to reach your goals (higher standard of living, affording more “extra’s”, etc.) sooner.


Conclusion
As a self employed artistan, to match the middle class lifestyle a $35K/yr job working for someone else might provide, you need to bring in much more than $35K/yr. Charging material cost plus a shop rate of $35/hr will not match it. Doubling your rate to $70/hr will not match it. $100/hr makes it possible to match that middle class $35k/yr budget and someday retire.



That’s pretty close I think to the original arguments on Anvilefire.com. Does this argument make sense? Am I missing anything? Please feel free to tear it up and discuss!

I’d love to hear from self employed artistans about how closely this matches their experience?
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Gustovic »

So, in which economical context are we? North American? Southern European? Northern European? Asian?
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Ursus Epicurius »

US it looks like. I have heard this number before, from someone who did the math while making a group of helmets.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Marco-borromei »

Whoops I did forget to say that!

My post is in US dollars and the budget numbers are loosely based on a average US city context.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Ursus Epicurius »

Seems like a good argument for not directly selling your own stuff. All that unbillable time spent selling suddenly becomes someone else's billable time.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by losthelm »

Well the target $100 assumes your putting in just many hours covering the rest of the busness.
Research and development
Billing
Promotion
Sourcing materials and tools
Social networking
Marketing
And everything else that's not swinging a hammer.

If someone else is dealing with sales, shipping, promotion and what have you figure 30% of the sale price.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Amanda M »

I would never be able to sell anything at that rate.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Marco-borromei »

Amanda M wrote:I would never be able to sell anything at that rate.

Well, I got close to that rate on certain types of rapier helms that were really easy conversions, but there wasn't enough of a market for me to sell them all year. I could NOT have afforded to be a self employed armorer making just rapier helmets. I'd sold somewhere around 300 helmets over 6 years... 300 helmets only equaled about 800 hours of shop time. It takes at LEAST a 1000 billable hours a year to be self employed. Even if I'd made AND sold them all in one year, I'd have run out of work and starved before thanksgiving.

Some products don't have enough demand to keep a business busy enough.

Are you making your banners and other items as a hobby [alongside other employment] or as your sole supporting job?
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by losthelm »

The best way to be a professional is to find a partner with a real job and benefits.
The next best option is to have a real job and work on your side busness nights and weekends.
Cuts your personal expenses a ton and the security of a regular paycheck is huge.
Online sales and events have varriying results.
You also have things that can go wrong vary quickly.
Shipments lost, orders misplaced, unexpected equipment expenses, changes in supply cost/quality.
And then you have the personal stuff that can kill productivity or devistate savings.

Its easy to sell when the market is hungry for product.
Unfortunately there are a lot of people able and willing to make decent product part time or as a side busness. It makes the market tight for emerging artists.

If it was easy everyone would do it themselves.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Sevastian »

Well said, and the reason I still drudge away at a 9 to 5 that eats at my soul. It helps fund my armor making hobby! The armor making hobby helps keep me sane. It all balances out for me so far.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Signo »

Long gone are the times when armourers and weaponsmith filled entire blocks of a city, and there was job and money for all of them. Making armour for a living is a luxury that few can have today , but I guess their lifestyle is not so luxurious.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Luca Sogliano »

Signo wrote:Long gone are the times when armourers and weaponsmith filled entire blocks of a city, and there was job and money for all of them. Making armour for a living is a luxury that few can have today , but I guess their lifestyle is not so luxurious.
Entire blocks in Hamburg and Milan, perhaps. But so much armor was imported that I don't see every city having blocks of armorers. Smiths, perhaps.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Jacob »

Consider also the impact of selling products for unsustainably low prices. You may have another job and safety net, but you are directly hurting those who are trying to survive full time in a small market. When you just make thing for friends, you can consider that the extra time is a gift. If you are selling on the open market, you are competing with those who are trying to make a living.

These markets are very cheap, and there are a lot of people competing for the bottom.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Amanda M »

I wouldn't say that it is a hobby. It is my second job that helps me to pay my bills and support my family. As far as I know what I do is not something anyone does as their sole income. I sell at what I think are the highest prices that people are willing to buy what I sell. I would love to make art full time and I am working on trying to branch out in to new areas so that some day it might happen but the market as it stands is too small for that to be possible selling heraldic art. I make anywhere from $10-$20 an hour at it and even then what I make is beyond the capability of many people in the SCA or similar hobbies to buy. The fact is that with armor or any sort of reenactment goods we are all competing with each other for the shrinking middle class person's disposable income. Until the economy improves for everyone we are all going to be hurting.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Mark Griffin »

My small business advisor (a govt funded course to stop me lazing at home while they kindly paid my mortgage for 6 months due to unemployment) gave a basic figure of 100 days, the general accepted average amount a self-employed person works. Of course thats a bit of fantasy.

I also qualified as a chef two lifetimes ago and pricing a dish was always set at 1/3 labour, 1/3 materials and overheads, 1/3 profit. That seems to be the understood norm over the hotel industry, certainly here and Europe.

Its an individual circumstance thing when an artisan. I Know an armourer here who had full books producing ok stuff at low prices because he worked free from his parents place. Which he';s now lost and his rates have had to rise to a point where its not viable, just not getting the work. If he had an apprentice it would but then you have a headache with paperwork and a whole host of other stuff so again, not much use, and thats before you factor in time out to teach them.

Frustrating all round!
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Baron Eirik »

I half-joke that my business model is 'my hands craft nothing'. The above math is part of the reason why. Another is that I don't enjoy any hand-skill enough to get good at it. Right now the only hand-crafted items I'm selling are the planed & carved rattan weapons -- that someone else carves. I cheerfully pay for his time & skill at the rate he asks, slap on my mark-up and put the weapons on the table.

Right now it looks like the SCA and reenacting in general can support 'hobby' merchants and a few 'professional' merchants who can blend commercially-made products with some cottage-industry level crafters and artisans.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Alex Baird »

Marco-borromei wrote: Some products don't have enough demand to keep a business busy enough.
And there it is.

Either there is a big enough demand for a given product to be able to price it as a commodity, or you aren't making a commodity product, you are making a series of semi-bespoke items. If you are selling bespoke, commissioned items, then the value you can sell them for depends on what an individual client will pay, and not on the general market.

Build 100 top end Ferraris by hand, and you can charge whatever you want, because more than 100 people want one. Build 1,000,000 Toyotas, and you can dial in a price based on what the market will pay on average. But, build 500 custom hot rods in a market that ranges from 500-1000 buyers and it is gonna be difficult to set a price, especially when there are other hot rod customizers competing for their business, and the customers can get by just fine with a stock vehicle.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Baron Conal »

I tried to work for myself for a while. .... I never got close to that labor rate.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Luca Sogliano »

If people won't buy it at the price you need to charge, don't make it. This seems to be the hardest lesson to learn.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Amanda M »

I am comfortable with what I charge and what I make from it.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Cap'n Atli »

Luca Sogliano wrote:If people won't buy it at the price you need to charge, don't make it. This seems to be the hardest lesson to learn.
Usually, reality translates this into: "Don't make a second one."

If it doesn't sell, you may have it priced too high, or maybe nobody really likes it. If somebody commissions something, get all the specs as close to worked out as possible. If they give you grief about your estimated price, give up on it sooner rather than later, before you put time and materials into the job.

The game has to be worth your candle(s).
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Mac »

I am sure that the $100/hour shop rate is a good guideline. So far as I can tell, the premises are reasonable and the numbers make sense.

The unfortunate corollary to it is there is virtually no way to reconcile that with making custom armor. I could imagine rates like that for munitions armor, but the time that goes into custom work is really quite great, and the resulting price tags would be very high indeed. The pool of people who are willing and able to pay that much for armor is very small. I might be able to find work under those conditions, and so might perhaps another dozen armorers, worldwide.

If someone had explained this to me carefully back in '79, I might have continued to work as an entomologist, and I would have prospects of retirement.

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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by wcallen »

Back in the 80's Aaron and I (with help at various times from other people, some quite extensive) built armour for a "living". Looking at an inflation calculator for the U.S. That would have been about $45/hour. I don't think we ever came close to that.

We never did the math this carefully either. But it quickly became apparent that we could easily build and sell armour that was a mix of custom and off the shelf and if we actually worked at it instead of letting everyone in the local group congregate at our shop to talk, we could make something in between what we would have made working at McDonald's (full time) and loading trucks for UPS (5 hours a day).

There is some possibly un-intuitive math you could roll in. Almost no one is going to have a net income that is actually high enough to pay all that much tax. Being self employed does allow a person (assuming the work they are doing overlaps nicely with what they actually want to do) to live "better" than the numbers would imply because almost everything you do other than pay apartment rent and buy food can be deducted pretty easily and completely legally. That isn't to imply that you can live well that way, just more cheaply than you might expect. For example, I expect that going to the war could be 100% deductible for Mac. It certainly would have been for us (but we never needed that deduction). We actually looked around at a bachelor party we were throwing one day and it would have been at least as legitimately deducted as almost all customer entertainment for a major business. Again, we already owed no tax, so we didn't need to include that as a deduction.

As Mac indicates, retirement was never included in any of our math. What 22 year old would think that far ahead?

That is why neither of us make armour professionally any more.

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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Mac »

wcallen wrote:Back in the 80's Aaron and I (with help at various times from other people, some quite extensive) built armour for a "living". Looking at an inflation calculator for the U.S. That would have been about $45/hour. I don't think we ever came close to that.
...and for some reason, I though I should charge significantly less than you guys did. I'm not even sure I understand why I thought so, but it was a stupid damned idea, and I have come to regret it.

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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by wcallen »

Mac wrote:
wcallen wrote:Back in the 80's Aaron and I (with help at various times from other people, some quite extensive) built armour for a "living". Looking at an inflation calculator for the U.S. That would have been about $45/hour. I don't think we ever came close to that.
...and for some reason, I though I should charge significantly less than you guys did. I'm not even sure I understand why I thought so, but it was a stupid damned idea, and I have come to regret it.

Mac
I can't explain it either. You should usually have charged more.
The only pieces where we might have had an SCA edge were probably the sport bascinets where we were making some pretty indestructible hats. I am in no way trying to say that they looked better... they did basically look like they looked. But they could take a whacking and not show a thing. The rest, you had us.

In general, armour prices seem to be set in some pretty stupid ways.

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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Marco-borromei »

Wade and Mac,
I appreciate both of you chiming in. You have the sort of experience these conversations need.

Yes, there are lots of tax angles for a self employed person. I don't know any of them, so can't really judge how much of a difference it makes... I married a banker so I wouldn't have to learn that stuff. I know my brother works every angle possible and saves every receipt to create reasonable/legal deductions... I always wondered if it was really worth the labor, can you really save that much? Apparently so, since so many business owners do it. I'd appreciate anything more you could say on that topic.

When it comes to the prices for custom armor, I agree at the $100/hr shop rate, most real quality work would be unaffordable to most people in our games. Interestingly, we have comparison data from 1530's Ferrara in the ledger books of one d'Este Prince Ippolito. His accountant/household manager kept careful track of everything, including staff wages and royal level gifts. The source for these numbers is Mary Hollingsworth's book "The Cardinal's Hat."

Ippolito paid his both stable master and chief valet 41 "scudo" a year [the gold coin un which the author standardized all the accounting]. His chef got 24, a footman 12, and a stable boy 1. All of these wages included certain measured amounts of food each day, living quarters, and uniforms.

Some retail prices were mentioned... 1 scudo would buy several chickens or 50Kg of flour. Now, for "princely" level purchases, Ippolito would pay 1 scudo for a pair of boots, 2 to the nun who made his embroidered shirts, 2 per yard of silk, 40 for a good horse, or 5 for a older nag. A man of his traveling all year paid a total of 65 for lodging and meals on the road. Ippolito paid 8 for a GIFT sword/scabbard/belt... and 87 for gift jousting armor for the king of France.

Its tough to translate those prices into EXACT modern amounts, but in general it feels about right for wages and consumer goods today. Real estate prices throw everything off [5 to rent a house, 6 for a wharehouse, and 12 per acre for farmland], but goods and wages seem reasonable.

A kingly quality suit of jousting armor costs
-More than twice the annual pay of a stable master or butler.
-Three times and a bit more than the wages of a head cook.
-Ten times the cost of a good sword/scabbard/belt.
-Half again more than living/eating in hotels all year.
-More than 40 yards of hand made silk fabric.
-More than rent on 17 houses for a year [or one for 17 years]
-More than 2 tons of flour [wow, flour was REALLY expensive compared to housing!]

So, if a skilled modern horse trainer makes about $50K [it was 2013 when I did all this math], and fancy jousting armor should cost twice that, then $100K to compare to other commercial goods?

Or, compared to 2 tons of flour, $3K? Compared to renting a house for 17 years, $240K? See, realestate and flour values have changed a LOT.

How many hours would you put into something you'd consider fit for the king of france [or any other king, depending on your politics]? 1000 hours of shop work? More/less?
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Galileo »

I'd be interested to hear what Ugo has to say, since he still does this professionally.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Gustovic »

Take into account that a suit of that kind would have been very likely gilt in gold (very expensive) and/or polished (which, by dr. Capwell, constitutes 75% of an armour's cost).

We are talking about A LOT of decoration. Kingly stuff was weird and super fancy. A suit of armour of the same protective qualities but without all the decorations would cost much much less.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Chris Gilman »

A shop rate of $100/hr. seems excessive for all but the highest skilled armourers.
Some examples of hourly rates:
Machine shops have shop rates of $65 to $75/hr.
Construction: $50 to $75/hr.
Software engineer: $37.50/hr. (No overhead in this figure)
These are based on how much overhead you carry compared with how many hours of labor you put in plus a percentage profit. Another factor is risk, how well do you know how to do the job and is your job basically the same thing with minor variables.

All mediated by what the market will pay!
As an example:
SAG actors current rate is $75/hr (SAG extra is about $18.50/hr) but “A-List” actors can demand millions per picture (Ballpark- $30,000/hr.)

Given many armourers work from home, have little expensive equipment, are not carrying workers comp, so overhead is relatively low. My shop is 12,000 sq. ft. and I maintain 9-11 employees, so my overhead is very high and our shop rate is $85-$120/ hr. This variable is based on how skilled a worker (Read how expensive) do I need to do the job, added to this is, how difficult/ unknown is this jobs production going to be (In other words, have I done this type of thing a hundred times, or am I going to have to do a lot of experimenting and guessing) and lastly, how particular or difficult is the client.
Another factor is Living wage. Can you make enough per hour to pay your bills and live your daily life? Also factor in what would you rather do? If you want to make tons of money, then find a job that is in high demand and learn that job. (Current top pay jobs are: Anesthesiologists & Surgeons @ $230k/yr., and the highest non-medical is Petroleum engineers @ $150K/yr.)
Also, do you love doing what you do? I met a guy the other day, who was in his late 60’s who laid asphalt, been doing it his whole life, was full of energy and loved his work. Me, I wouldn’t want that job for a day. Lawyers make tons of money, but, there is not enough money in the world to make me want to be a lawyer!

Want to make $100/ hr. making custom armour? Spend a ton of time getting really good at your craft, then even more time & money advertising your skill, then more time cultivating clients who are “surgeons and Petroleum engineers” and after that, pay someone who is really good at PR and understands how to promote artists and they will find more clients who are willing to spend $150,000+, on a replica of something that hasn’t been needed in 500 years.

Even in the movie business, who are willing to pay top dollar, they don’t want armourers, they want costume makers who can make what they think armour should be. In good years, I make a decent amount of money and have a passion for armour and can use it in my business, on top of all that, I have gotten to a point in my understanding of armour and what is quality work, that I would only consider maybe 3 or 4 armourers as good enough to make what I’d pay top dollar for. With all of these factors, even I cannot afford to pay that kind of money for armour. There are some out there who can, and occasionally do, but you can talk all you want about how much an hour you should make, but the reality is, the world doesn’t need armour and there are already enough armourers out there who will be better than most and cheaper than many, to supply the majority of the demand.

It’s a bitch I know, but if you love doing what you do and can pay your bills and have fun in life, keep making armour.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Gustovic »

Chris Gilman wrote:A shop rate of $100/hr. seems excessive for all but the highest skilled armourers.
Some examples of hourly rates:
Machine shops have shop rates of $65 to $75/hr.
Construction: $50 to $75/hr.
Software engineer: $37.50/hr. (No overhead in this figure)
These are based on how much overhead you carry compared with how many hours of labor you put in plus a percentage profit. Another factor is risk, how well do you know how to do the job and is your job basically the same thing with minor variables.

All mediated by what the market will pay!
As an example:
SAG actors current rate is $75/hr (SAG extra is about $18.50/hr) but “A-List” actors can demand millions per picture (Ballpark- $30,000/hr.)

Given many armourers work from home, have little expensive equipment, are not carrying workers comp, so overhead is relatively low. My shop is 12,000 sq. ft. and I maintain 9-11 employees, so my overhead is very high and our shop rate is $85-$120/ hr. This variable is based on how skilled a worker (Read how expensive) do I need to do the job, added to this is, how difficult/ unknown is this jobs production going to be (In other words, have I done this type of thing a hundred times, or am I going to have to do a lot of experimenting and guessing) and lastly, how particular or difficult is the client.
Another factor is Living wage. Can you make enough per hour to pay your bills and live your daily life? Also factor in what would you rather do? If you want to make tons of money, then find a job that is in high demand and learn that job. (Current top pay jobs are: Anesthesiologists & Surgeons @ $230k/yr., and the highest non-medical is Petroleum engineers @ $150K/yr.)
Also, do you love doing what you do? I met a guy the other day, who was in his late 60’s who laid asphalt, been doing it his whole life, was full of energy and loved his work. Me, I wouldn’t want that job for a day. Lawyers make tons of money, but, there is not enough money in the world to make me want to be a lawyer!

Want to make $100/ hr. making custom armour? Spend a ton of time getting really good at your craft, then even more time & money advertising your skill, then more time cultivating clients who are “surgeons and Petroleum engineers” and after that, pay someone who is really good at PR and understands how to promote artists and they will find more clients who are willing to spend $150,000+, on a replica of something that hasn’t been needed in 500 years.

Even in the movie business, who are willing to pay top dollar, they don’t want armourers, they want costume makers who can make what they think armour should be. In good years, I make a decent amount of money and have a passion for armour and can use it in my business, on top of all that, I have gotten to a point in my understanding of armour and what is quality work, that I would only consider maybe 3 or 4 armourers as good enough to make what I’d pay top dollar for. With all of these factors, even I cannot afford to pay that kind of money for armour. There are some out there who can, and occasionally do, but you can talk all you want about how much an hour you should make, but the reality is, the world doesn’t need armour and there are already enough armourers out there who will be better than most and cheaper than many, to supply the majority of the demand.

It’s a bitch I know, but if you love doing what you do and can pay your bills and have fun in life, keep making armour.
+1
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Pinterest page to almost all existing XIVth century armour
http://www.pinterest.com/aboerbront/
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Bender »

Its a fringe market, with average people who seem to make less than a middle class wage overall.

Armoring is a wonderful craft as a small sideline if you structure it right. People always complain about "armorer did not deliver."

But when you are working a Que and even if you are very dedicated-one or two flaky customers hold you up-you can find yourself in dire straights very quickly.

Add in idiots who feel that they need to call you to waste your time, several times a week-because they think you should give them priority over the rest-and then you have even more stress.

I'm actually surprised to hear of people making it doing armor for longer than a year or two. And most that do are retailers who sub contract from multiple sources,Like Ice Falcon. Not too hard to do good customer service when you have others doing the grunt work for you.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

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I disagree with a LOT of your assertions.
Remember that many these “extra’s” are usually INCLUDED in the standard $35k/yr job: health insurance, some help with retirement savings, taxes already deducted to make tax paying less complicated, and provide their own works space/tools/emergency coverage as part of the job.
Whether taxes are taken out or not depends the employment. If you are working contract, well, none of the above is true. Insurance is not usually included in the standard $35k job, although there is a good chance that the company pays for a part of the employee's insurance. However, there are very few jobs at all where you qualify for insurance working 20 hours a week. Also, the each year you work pays for a year of retirement is fucking ridiculous. No $35k/yr job has that. There is a lot more, but these are the main things. Some of the other things I would say have been said.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Amanda M »

Jobs with benefits of any kind have been rapidly disappearing for decade. 35k is what I make at my regular job before taxes and with the costs of everything today it doesn't leave you with a whole lot. I am lucky to have insurance and stuff but can't save for retirement at all and many people my age are in the same boat because we can't afford to have money taken out of our checks to save. 35k may have been a good living 30 years so but today it really isn't. Our target buyers are trying to make it on less and less as time goes on. The 'middle class' is shrinking and it is our customer base. I will probably die with a pile of student loans and work until
I am physically incapable of it, and I have years of education and a 'good' job.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Jestyr »

Chris Gilman wrote:...the reality is, the world doesn’t need armour and there are already enough armourers out there who will be better than most and cheaper than many, to supply the majority of the demand.
This.
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Re: $100/hr shop rate

Post by Donngal »

I run a full time armoury.
Im the only employee. a 65.00 per hour shop rate doesn't allow to have a 2nd employee. I wish it did.
before this I worked full time as armorer elsewhere.
before that I owned a pizza restaurant.

This is a tough business and to be honest what makes it tougher is talented people undervaluing there time and efforts.
I don't think that anyone who has never been self employed can truly understand what it means to be self employed.
most people I see trying to be a professional full time armorer doesn't charge enough for what it takes. They work from home or a property
with little to no overhead. they don't pay shop insurance rates. there company doesn't actually make money to repair replace or upgrade any tools.
They don't charge for the 179.3 emails it takes to actually get the order and then get it finished and mailed out.
they don't think about the 12 hours they spend rummaging through the scrap yard every month.
they don't think about the fact it cost (for example) 450.00 to go to and work a event and on top of that nobody is back at the shop taking care of things, producing
because when you only sell 550.00 at the event that 100.0 "profit" at the event doesn't cover the shop expenses for 5 days.

its really is a lot of work. i spend 20 hours a week in the office, answering emails, doing research for clients, paying bills.

Oh and if you have a return, do you have the money set aside to do that in a proper manner? we are all human and make mistakes, sometimes a mistake warrants a return. or if you rebuild there is shop time being used and not paid for. yeah you hope to make it back 1 day when the original is sold.
armorers get in trouble when they take a big deposit, live on it and then lets say the welder breaks, now they have no money to fix it and a client that's very upset that there product isn't finished remotely on time and the cycle begins.

I periodically do custom motorcycle repairs on tins and such, let me tell you those guys have no issue paying 120.00 per hour.

im not trying to sound like a downer or pissy. there's just a lot of things I've learned. good customer service isn't cheap. Think about it, if you have to be on the phone for 2 hours and then do 3 hours of research and emails that money to keep the shop open comes from somewhere. having a signif with a decent job is a huge bonus, even better if she is a travel agent :) anyways, im have to go back into the shop and work on stuff to pay for the shop time i used righting this lol.

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