Introduction and High Medieval mail project

[Boza]

To be very honest, given the survivorship bias I find any speculations over lenght of the sleeves sort of amusing. Namely, when taking into consideration the economy, behavioral, social an cultural aspects of the given area in given century.

To the Gammertingen burial, Vogt (2006) says "kapuzenartige Kragen", that's "hood-like collar".

[J. Salazar]

Hi folks, just wanted to post a quick update for everyone. I have some good news and some bad news.

Well, the bad news is that I failed to make a new tool which had wider overlaps and larger rivets. Its back to the drawing board as usual. I'll have to take the entire week to prepare and try again on Saturday, which provides the free time needed to work on the tongs.

The good news is this!



This is real, honest-to-goodness bloomery iron, kindly donated by Mr. Lee Sauder of the Rockbridge bloomery.
http://iron.wlu.edu/

I'm uncertain of the specific metallurgy, such as phosphorus and carbon content, etc., but Lee seemed to imply that this was a soft bloom. Once I have some time I'm going to cut some strips and see how it draws. If it is suitable for rings I plan to buy a bloom for future projects.

[coreythompsonhm]

I have been saving "black sand" from my neighbor's gold mining adventures for the purpose of smelting some iron for mail. Anxious to see what results you can achieve.

[J. Salazar]

No kidding?

I'm curious to see what kind of properties the bloom would have from black sand. Keep us posted brother.

[coreythompsonhm]

Black sand is iron ore, just finely ground down. It tends to be where gold is at due to similar weight.

I wont be getting to it in awhile, I haven't collected enough (I think) and I have a lot of projects on the table. But once its smelted, I am going to build a wire drawing bench and see how things go.

[J. Salazar]

Hello again! Just wanted to update everyone on my project.

Sorry about the long wait, work tends to have me down for the count towards the end of the year. However I'm ready to start off the new year with my new project. Here's my newest sample after some fine-tuning...



I re-worked the peening tongs to make the overlaps a bit more rounded and the rivet head a bit more pronounced. Also, the solid links are a bit different on this one. They show a bit of dishing as a result of being punched out. While I like the appearance I'm not quite sure I'll use it for the project, since I've only ever seen this feature on Indo-Persian mail.

All the same, I'm happy to say I've completely solved my piercing issues by making a pair of piercing tongs. For now it is on to the drudgery of mass-producing rings. Any advice on keeping my sanity would be greatly appreciated.

[Signo]

Could you show us your piercing tong and peening tongs?
Thanks

[coreythompsonhm]

A quick whack with a 2 lb hand sledge on those punched rings will flatten them back out.

[worldantiques]

What we do know, however, is that the watershed was an extremely common feature of European mail from later centuries. Whether it was used to improve the strength of rings or simply an artifact of the normal manufacturing process is the real question for me

With regard to this, let me clarify what I meant by the watershed being due to wedge riveting: What I was thinking was that it wasn't the rivet per se that led to the watershed, but the way the overlap changes shape when pierced with a wedge-shaped drift in order to accommodate a wedge rivet. But even then, would that be enough to lead to the swage to eventually adopt a watershed-giving shape? Or would it be necessary to directly shape the swage to get that?

I personally believe that the watershed characteristic may have been a purposely added feature along with wedge riveting, both in an attempt to keep the individual links from twisting. Some mail makers either did not learn how to do this (watershed) or thought it was not necessary/useful etc. If you look at a round riveted link without watershed and a wedge riveted link with watershed it is easy to see which link would resist pivoting at the overlap. If the link resists moving at the rivet there will be less rivet failure.

[worldantiques]

The watershed did not start appearing on mail until about the mid 13th century at the earliest, along with the advent of of the wedge rivet...I am trying to create something from the 10th to 12th Centuries. However, the few extant examples of European round-riveted mail that we have do seem to have a rounded appearance the the lapped joint.

What evidence of watershed do you specifically know of that can be dated to the mid 13th century?

[worldantiques]

I re-worked the peening tongs to make the overlaps a bit more rounded and the rivet head a bit more pronounced. Also, the solid links are a bit different on this one. They show a bit of dishing as a result of being punched out. While I like the appearance I'm not quite sure I'll use it for the project, since I've only ever seen this feature on Indo-Persian mail.

This is 17th to 18th century Indian mail, the links on this example are thought to have been swagged, they look a lot like the ones you made. Most Indian mail does not look like this, the solid links are completely different in shape, they are flat sided and welded shut, perhaps this example was made in the same way yours was.

[J. Salazar]

I personally believe that the watershed characteristic may have been a purposely added feature along with wedge riveting, both in an attempt to keep the individual links from twisting. Some mail makers either did not learn how to do this (watershed) or thought it was not necessary/useful etc. If you look at a round riveted link without watershed and a wedge riveted link with watershed it is easy to see which link would resist pivoting at the overlap. If the link resists moving at the rivet there will be less rivet failure.

Awesome, I've never thought of it that way...could you help me understand what you mean by twisting? As in a force trying to "push" the ring open, like an arrow, or as in two pliers trying to pry the ring open? I'd be curious to see some experiments done.

What evidence of watershed do you specifically know of that can be dated to the mid 13th century?

None, actually...I redact what I said. I should not have equated wedge rivets with watersheds, sorry about the confusion.

And yes, that image you posted is precisely what I was referring to. It was just a curiosity really, I intend to flatten them out until I design a swage. Thanks for the input, I'm very fond of your pinterest collection! I've been looking at the Vimose rings lately. If you can offer some examples of round riveted European mail I may have missed I'd be very appreciative.

[J. Salazar]

Could you show us your piercing tong and peening tongs?
Thanks

No problem. I should have some time tonight.

[wcallen]

A similar eastern shirt:
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/M-1 ... Corner.jpg

Other pictures:
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-1.html

Again, the tapered solid rings.

I would expect it is very similar in origin and date to the one worldantiques posted.

Wade

[wcallen]

By the way, I like your mail. Much nicer riveted overlap than is common these days. And the geometry on the flat rings is nicer too. I actually think I like the domed punched rings, it avoids that annoying "washer" look a lot of modern mail gets.

Wade

[worldantiques]

I personally believe that the watershed characteristic may have been a purposely added feature along with wedge riveting, both in an attempt to keep the individual links from twisting. Some mail makers either did not learn how to do this (watershed) or thought it was not necessary/useful etc. If you look at a round riveted link without watershed and a wedge riveted link with watershed it is easy to see which link would resist pivoting at the overlap. If the link resists moving at the rivet there will be less rivet failure.

Awesome, I've never thought of it that way...could you help me understand what you mean by twisting? As in a force trying to "push" the ring open, like an arrow, or as in two pliers trying to pry the ring open? I'd be curious to see some experiments done.

After years of being used mail would wear, the shear weight of the links in a 20 to 30 lb hauberk pulling and twisting against each other along with expanding and contracting when heating up and cooling down, tended to make any slight imperfection in the riveting process a potential rivet failure. This example from Wades collection shows what I mean. Round riveted links have two flat ends pushed together with just a round rivet holding them together. Any kind of torque etc applied over many years will have a chance of weakening the link at the rivet. I believe that the wedge shaped rivet and the watershed may have been an attempt to keep the links from doing what is shown in this image. Just my personal opinion, any other opinions on why wedge shaped rivets and watershed are welcome.

[worldantiques]

I've been looking at the Vimose rings lately. If you can offer some examples of round riveted European mail I may have missed I'd be very appreciative.

Unfortunately there are almost no verifiable, public images of round riveted mail from the pre-wedge rivet era. Since most mail is not photographed showing both sides of the link, we can not know for sure if something is actually round riveted unless someone verifies it. There are a few scraps of round riveted mail that is so old we know that it is round riveted. Here is a later all round riveted hauberk, probably Eastern European.

[Ernst]

The Tofta coif from the mid-13th century uses round-section rivets.

[Ungman]

I instantly thought of the Tofta coif aswell since it was found and displayed 3 km from my house

13th century coif with round rivets. Here is the archeology report (google translate is your friend)

http://samla.raa.se/xmlui/bitstream/han ... sequence=1

The whole report is interesting but on page 16 you'll find the rivet hole

//Erik

[Ernst]

The best pre-conservation picture of the external side.


The shaping around the rivet almost certainly comes from the closing tongs.

[worldantiques]

The Tofta coif from the mid-13th century uses round-section rivets.

An interesting example but I am not sure that this would help Jorge to reproduce round riveted mail.

[Mark D. Chapman]

A couple of comments based on my own research in doing my article for the Journal of Arms and Armour:
1) When looking at medieval mail the source of the iron was critical to the process. Only the purest iron had a sufficiently low slag content to permit the drawing into wire. If possible the first iron from the batch was used and specific sources were preferred. Witness the import of Swedish iron into England due to its higher quality and being better suited to making wire.

2) From my own experimentation:
a) Wrought iron sheet can certainly be slit and then drawn into wire. I did this with pre 17th century charcoal made wrought iron for the article.
b) The wrought iron links flatten, pierce and swage just fine if the iron is pure enough
c) The use of wedge rivets has no effect on the shape of the overlap when it comes to pent roof or not. This is set by the swaging pliers. Even a piercer for wedge rivets tends to raise a "circular or slightly oval" volcano shape at the piercing point. Once pierced there is no sign of any pent roof.

The swaging pliers determine the overall overlap shape. I agree this could possibly be from wear or could have been discovered from a wear effect in the case of simple ovaloid overlaps. However you cannot "wear" in a sharp roof edge. I believe this can only come from a deliberate addition of this feature to the wells in the pliers. Properly done it has a rather sharp roof peak that insantly stands out compared to an ovaloid overlap.
d) what is still definitely up for discussion is how the swaging wells were made in the tongs.
Possible methods:
1) Engrave the wells
2) File a chisel to shape and stamp the wells into the tongs - hard to do cold but can be done hot
3) Carefully file a fake ring out of iron or steel. Heat tong ends place ring positive between jaws and
hammer to set the impression. Hard to do with precision.
4) File the well into the tongs

The one thing we know is that for a given wire size these wells must be matched to a high degree of precision to get that nice pent roof shape. Also the dimple for the rivet head must be stamped into the setting tongs as well.

Hope this helps,
Mark

[Ernst]

The Tofta coif from the mid-13th century uses round-section rivets.

An interesting example but I am not sure that this would help Jorge to reproduce round riveted mail.

No, but it is contrary evidence to this statement, as rings have been sectioned to determine the rivet shape.

Unfortunately there are almost no verifiable, public images of round riveted mail from the pre-wedge rivet era.

[worldantiques]

The Tofta coif from the mid-13th century uses round-section rivets.

An interesting example but I am not sure that this would help Jorge to reproduce round riveted mail.

No, but it is contrary evidence to this statement, as rings have been sectioned to determine the rivet shape.

Unfortunately there are almost no verifiable, public images of round riveted mail from the pre-wedge rivet era.

I did say "almost"..and this example is verified, most are not, normally you either you only see one side of the links or they are so corroded that you can not see any clear details etc. If I were to make a Pinterest page of proven pre-wedge riveted, European round riveted mail were you could actually see the details of the links it would be almost empty, not a bad idea actually, as it would only take a few minutes to place all of the known examples in it.

[Indianer]

Gentlemen, i´m sorry but i need to interrupt you here for my peace of mind. From the beginning i was wondering how a pent-roof shape in riveted rigns might look, and i still did not get it. Perhaps, could one of you who know more post an example? That would be great for my own work here as well

Best, Indi!

[Ernst]

The pent-roof or "watershed" can easily be seen in the 'Bechler' shirt at the Met. It's that ridge which runs to either side of the rivet. The curve in the ridge makes it difficult to see how this could have been filed into the setting tongs.

MET 14.25.1540 watershed.jpg (48.86 KiB) Viewed 2554 times

worldantiques is the man when it comes to Pinterest pages, so I have no doubt his collection of images will help.

[Indianer]

Thanks very much Ernst for that complete and kind answer, now it´s all clear!
Best, Indi

[worldantiques]

Top image shows European wedge riveted mail with watershed, the bottom image shows European round riveted mail with no watershed.

[Indianer]

Another nice images and comparison, thanks to you as well, worldantiques! It took me quite some time but now i understood your previous post:

worldantiques:

I personally believe that the watershed characteristic may have been a purposely added feature along with wedge riveting, both in an attempt to keep the individual links from twisting.

--nice idea!

Since there was the request for another detailed picture of your peening tongs, i would like to add my wish to see your punching setup for the closed rings, J. Salazar! Regarding your plans to reconstruct a whole hauberk, i am curious to know more about how you want to pattern the piece, since this is what took me quite a while...i seeked for something else than the ready-to-buy rectangle-like cloth.

Best Wishes, Indi

[J. Salazar]

A couple of comments based on my own research in doing my article for the Journal of Arms and Armour:
1) When looking at medieval mail the source of the iron was critical to the process. Only the purest iron had a sufficiently low slag content to permit the drawing into wire. If possible the first iron from the batch was used and specific sources were preferred. Witness the import of Swedish iron into England due to its higher quality and being better suited to making wire.

2) From my own experimentation:
a) Wrought iron sheet can certainly be slit and then drawn into wire. I did this with pre 17th century charcoal made wrought iron for the article.
b) The wrought iron links flatten, pierce and swage just fine if the iron is pure enough
c) The use of wedge rivets has no effect on the shape of the overlap when it comes to pent roof or not. This is set by the swaging pliers. Even a piercer for wedge rivets tends to raise a "circular or slightly oval" volcano shape at the piercing point. Once pierced there is no sign of any pent roof.

The swaging pliers determine the overall overlap shape. I agree this could possibly be from wear or could have been discovered from a wear effect in the case of simple ovaloid overlaps. However you cannot "wear" in a sharp roof edge. I believe this can only come from a deliberate addition of this feature to the wells in the pliers. Properly done it has a rather sharp roof peak that insantly stands out compared to an ovaloid overlap.
d) what is still definitely up for discussion is how the swaging wells were made in the tongs.
Possible methods:
1) Engrave the wells
2) File a chisel to shape and stamp the wells into the tongs - hard to do cold but can be done hot
3) Carefully file a fake ring out of iron or steel. Heat tong ends place ring positive between jaws and
hammer to set the impression. Hard to do with precision.
4) File the well into the tongs

The one thing we know is that for a given wire size these wells must be matched to a high degree of precision to get that nice pent roof shape. Also the dimple for the rivet head must be stamped into the setting tongs as well.

Hope this helps,
Mark

Very, very informative Mark, thank you. Could you please provide a link to the article you mentioned? Also, I'd love to see some examples of your work!

Indianer, let me see if I can dig up a picture of those piercing tongs. They're nothing special really, you can find plenty of examples with a google search. Still, let me see if I can get my phone talking to my computer.

[J. Salazar]

Here you go. I used a tap and die to insert a screw for locking the drift in place. Please note that the current drift is extremely broken.

[Mark D. Chapman]

Hi, I will try to get some pictures posted. The is article is "The Construction and Metallurgy of a Late Fifteenth Century Mail Sleeve"
By Mark D. Chapman Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, Volume XVIII No. 2 September 2004

Regards,
Mark

[Kristoffer]

I am really looking forward to see how this progress. It would be great if we could get a good method for maille reproduction.

[J. Salazar]

I personally believe that the watershed characteristic may have been a purposely added feature along with wedge riveting, both in an attempt to keep the individual links from twisting. Some mail makers either did not learn how to do this (watershed) or thought it was not necessary/useful etc. If you look at a round riveted link without watershed and a wedge riveted link with watershed it is easy to see which link would resist pivoting at the overlap. If the link resists moving at the rivet there will be less rivet failure.

From my facebook page...

Results of a new type of stress test involving horizontal stress (shear stress?) The ring was held firmly in a vice (the damage can be seen on the right side) and a length of thicker wire was used to try and open the ring. Despite bracing my leg against the table, I was unable to break it. I'm honestly starting to believe that the overlap may be the strongest point on the ring. I will definitely be buying a hanging scale to get a better sense of exactly how much weight it can hold before breaking.

Also of scholarly interest is the fact that the round rivet seems to act as a sort of "hinge" which allows the ring to be opened further, which is something which would not have occurred with a wedge rivet. Something to think about!

[Andeerz]

I remember reading a post by Mark Schmid a long time ago mentioning that the overlap was the least likely part of the ring to split and fail in destructive tests he did of his maille. Another maille enthusiast I followed who made similar looking maille (which was still very nicely made, mind you... also it was made of mild steel), when subjected to similar destructive tests, failled at the overlap.

You might be replicating something Mark Schmid did that others might be missing if your overlaps are that strong!