Researching Mail Bevors

[Tom B.]

I think that I have patterns for a couple of different standards figured out, will have a nice pizan done soon, so my next project to conquer is a mail bevor. I am collecting images of extant examples and those in art on this Pinterest board.

Please point me to others:

https://www.pinterest.com/tbiliter/mail-bevors/

[Tom B.]

I will be adding those examples shown in the first Thun Sketchbook shorthly.

[Tom B.]

An earlier thread by Ernst
Mail Bevor Suspension?

[Christian Wiedner]

Hi Tom,
I found a few more. More than I expexted to find.
Though sometimes it is really hard to tell if it is a bevor or a hood. Especially beneath the kettle hat I expect these are hoods...

[Christian Wiedner]

more...

[Christian Wiedner]

more...

[Christian Wiedner]

more...

[Christian Wiedner]

more...

[Christian Wiedner]

... and the last three

[Tom B.]

Many thanks Christian for all of those image

[Gustovic]

Couple more
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5194/16648/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5194/16656/

[Ernst]

Gustovic!

Those are really interesting, since they show the nose covered, but a gap between the helmet and mail. These miniatures have an earlier date than is usually ascribed to these items. Great find, sir.

[J. Salazar]

I'm curious, how much of what we see in period illustrations could be interpreted as "artistic license" on the part of the illustrator?

[shamrockarmoury]

Here is one I did a while back for ACL use.

Cheers
Jackie

[shamrockarmoury]

One more

[Icepocca]

What about this one?

[Gustovic]

Some more.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4911/14602/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5194/16654/

This one is hard to tell, it could be solid plate
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/3959/8561/

[Gustovic]

one more
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5152/15982/

And also, a very strange one. It look like it's a plate gorget with bevor. Worn under a frogmouth helm. Those two guys on the right with the chapel seem also to have it.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4161/7476/

Any thoughts?

[Mac]

....sometimes it is really hard to tell if it is a bevor or a hood. Especially beneath the kettle ...

This is really the crux of the problem. In many representations the mail disappears up into a helmet at an angle that is not really vertical enough to be a hood, but neither is it horizontal enough to be like the extant mail bevors. Either the artists just did not care about that detail, or there is yet another sort of mail garment which has not survived in spite of its great popularity.

Mac

[coreythompsonhm]

So may be a stupid question, but how does a stand alone mail bevor hold its shape?

[Mac]

That's a good question, really.

The extant examples are made of that really dense mail like was used in the collar part of standards. This stuff is stiff enough to stand by its self when shaped up like a cylinder. The things we don't know are how early that sort of mail existed, and how important the lining might be in helping it hold its shape.

Mac

[Ernst]

http://folk.uio.no/vegardav/brynje/Ring ... fsson).pdf

Møllerdalen, Buskerud

This is a fragmentary find of ring weave that was deposited at the
Oldsaksamlingen in the 19th century. The rings are unusually small. The
fragment was found together with a ring weave hosen (C 3250), a ditto gorget
(C 3108) and pieces of a sleeve (C 2314).
------------
The gorget C 3108 has an extension to provide sufficient
space for the chin. It also features overlapping edges on each side of the chin
section, probably to allow the edges to be laced snugly to the latter when
needed. The find was earlier interpreted as part of a sleeve.
That is without doubt wrong. The gorget is intact and in a very good state of
preservation (C 3108 – Oldsaksamlingen Oslo).

http://www.dokpro.uio.no/arkeologi/oslo/hovedkat.html

3108. Et Stykke af en Ringbrynje af Jærn fundet paa samme Sted som No. 2616 og 2314, men neppe hørende til samme Brynje. Nærværende Stykke er det øverste af det ene Ærme med lidt af Skulderstykket; Ringene ere ikke saa lidet større end i No. 2314 og 2616, og endnu altid mindre end sedvanlig. (Smlgn. No. 3250.)

Google Translate:
3108. A Piece af one chain mail af Jærn (of iron - Mart) funded in the same place as No. 2616 and 2314, but hardly belonging to the same Brynje. The present piece is the top af one sleeve with sustained af Shoulder piece; Rings ere not saa lidet larger end to No. 2314 and 2616, and watched always smaller end habitual. (Cf.,. No. 3250.)

Apparently there is some disagreement over these pieces. Vike notes that the chausse was originally described as a sleeve, as is the piece Vike considers a gorget or collar.

Photos would be nice. Maybe a bevor, maybe an aventail?

[Mac]

When I click on those links, I get a "not found" notice. Are they working for others?

Mac

[Ernst]

Mac, I edited them into url brackets. See if that helps?

[Mac]

I get a PDF on the first one now. The second takes be to a search page in Swedish (?), but I'm not sure what I am searching for.

Mac

[Ernst]

In the Museumsnr: box, enter the item number without spaces. C3108 for the bevor, gorget, aventail, top of sleeve thing.

Interestingly, the entry for C3250, Vike's chausse, contains some dimensions.

[Mac]

When I plug that number into the first part of the box in question, I get "1 Det fins ingen gjenstandspost som svarer til søket.1." Plugging that into google translate, I find that it means there is nothing there for that number. I also find that it's in Norwegian.

If I plug the number into the second part of the Museumsnr box, I get a message about a server error.

This may not be my day for adventures in searching Scandinavian data bases.

Mac

[Ernst]

Cross-Posted from Historical Research:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=180283

1397 Inventory of Thomas of Woodstock, Duke of Gloucester, etc.

Itm ij ketelhattes lun blanc ove j bordur dargent endorrez lautr ove j aventail cov'ez de russet velvet p's x.s.
Item, 2 kettle hats, the one white with 1 edge of silver gilt, the other with 1 aventail covered with russet colored velvet. valued 10s.

So, how do you attach an aventail to a kettle hat? Sew it to the suspension liner?
Is this the true identity of the "mail bevor", and if so, why are most of those mail items split down the length of their back or right side?

EDIT: Is that the only way to get it on and tight under the chin if it's sewn to the kettle hat suspension band?

[Sean M]

Randall did warn that he was not sure that an aventail/camail is always a hanging defense for the throat and jaw, and a bevor a standing defense. And we don't know what word was used for the mail jaw and throat armour worn with kettle hats, or how they stayed in place.