Armouring As A Career

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

Has any armoury ever turned a profit? Foreign or domestic?
Has any armourer ever gotten rich? Foreign or domestic?
Does anyone know of an amourer that has ever gotten investment capital with an actual business plan? Foreign or domestic?

Is there such a thing as a successful business plan for an armourer? Can anyone produce one? I'll sign NDAs.

Or does everyone just break even or go down in epic, public, flaming flames? A or B only, never a C?

Is Ice Falcon screwing up the bell curve? (by being profitable and successful)
He seems like the WalMart of combat sports armouries.

PS:
FFS, do not try and tell me that "get a sugar mama" is part of a business plan.
Everyone already knows that only works consistently for SCA UberDukes.

[coreythompsonhm]

Top notch high end armorers make ok money when theres patrons available. You are talking about such a nich market in the world. I have some business ideas, but really not sharing them unless someone is an investor.

[Wolf]

it always sounds fun. then it turns into trouble. low-no profits, injury vs production, supply/need down,

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

Top notch high end armorers make ok money when theres patrons available. You are talking about such a nich market in the world. I have some business ideas, but really not sharing them unless someone is an investor.

To me it's just another case study so no.
I am an investor but that's the last trade on Earth I'd likely invest in. One of them.
What makes you think they would succeed?
What's your sizzle factor?

[Ivar Kullberg]

There is several successful companies that I think make at least OK profit with low end mass produced armour for LARP and wall hanger kind or purposes. Several websites sell the same stuff dirt cheap and some company must make them.
I don't want to be a smart ass and this was probably not what you were after, but it is still a viable business model that produces most of the armour in the market today.

[coreythompsonhm]

Top notch high end armorers make ok money when theres patrons available. You are talking about such a nich market in the world. I have some business ideas, but really not sharing them unless someone is an investor.

To me it's just another case study so no.
I am an investor but that's the last trade on Earth I'd likely invest in. One of them.
What makes you think they would succeed?
What's your sizzle factor?

Why do you think I haven't done it either
Costs to return ratio is too high.

[Marco-borromei]

There doesn't appear RIGHT NOW to be a market large enough to support another person making off the rack SCA-combat armor; Icefalcon has a lot of that market already.

There doesn't seem to be a non-SCA market right now; HEMA isn't generally using steel armor, and there's no big social/movie/tv/internet magnet around which to form a demand. On the other hand, lightsabers are big now, and there's several manufacturers making a living off lightsabers or a side income stream for jedi schools in their existing USAF fencing businesses. Maybe a few years ago you could have shown up to cosplay cons with a rack each of $500 or $2000 ironman suits and sold out both racks, but even that was a limited market.

This is the same conversation that comes up annually on Anvilfire.com about making a living as a blacksmith. The answer there from people who DO make a living as blacksmiths is always the same: either work a supporting line of business [architectural ironwork in an area building expensive showcase homes is one some guys do] or magic/luck/network into the high end "art" world and make "art." I don't see THAT many artists making a living either, nor do I understand "art" as a business and market, so I wouldn't try going that way myself.

Back to the supporting line of business... There's a place locally that does both off-the-rack and custom architectural ironwork. They have a showroom full of railing kits, patio furniture, wall hangings, switch plates, etc. They also sell steel to local artists or hobbyists like me. They publish a shop/hour rate for general metal repairs. They are making the most of a warehouse full of steel, a couple laser cutters, and other machine shop tools. The DON'T make armor. I asked once what they'd charge to make a rough copy of a breastplate I brought in... $2000. They just don't have the experience to know it took me maybe 6 hours. They weren't interested in starting an unknown line of business, and I can't blame them. I wasn't interested in investing enough in their business to get myself access to the machines and basically make myself a full time job... but if that were MY business, I could make armor on the side for a decent profit, since the main business already supports the space and machinery.

There's a guy making SCA fencing equipment who I think is doing just that, using his job at a ironworks to get access to a CnC laser cutter and heat treating facilities. All his hilts are flat cut and folded, and I'm 99% sure I know the modern business where he works days and does this at nights.

Through my brother's hot rod shop, I've met a couple of modern machine shops who have top of the line gear, but no time. Ever machine is running 24/7 feeding either the racing support industry or aerospace. They'll sell me time on the waterjet, but I can't afford to compete with aerospace/racing money unless I find/create a more lucrative market than the SCA provides.


When hollywood creates a series of really successful movies with decent medieval armor, that MIGHT be enough to get a short term boom market for armorers to sell similar suits to movie fans. MIGHT.

Here's a odd bit from a conversation with my hot rod building brother 10 years ago... he asked how many SCA rapier/c&t helmets I'd sold... at the time, 200 ish in 4 years and the market was dried up. In the same 4 years he'd sold slightly MORE custom made suspension spring kits for a 10 year segment of corvettes. Not even all 50 years worth of corvettes, and not even all the owners of that 10 span of models, just the guys who wanted a slightly stiffer ride. In the last 10 years, Chevy claims to average 22,000 corvette sales per year. 1% of that market bought this upgrade package from him. Its one of DOZENS of custom parts he sells as a sideline to the business of general car repair, classic car restorations, custom hotrods, etc. My entire hobby business was based on less of a market than 1 part for one model of car that's a sideline to him. How much armor would it take to make a living or get rich? Is there ever going to be that kind of market for it?

[Ernst]

Probably not what you have in mind....
http://www.bodyarmornews.com/department ... -security/

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

One of the problems I can see is that every new piece of armour made is competing with every other piece ever made before it because there is no shelf life. Metal armour is forever and usually outlives its owner(s). There is plenty of dead-guy-hand-me-down armour around in the SCA. I have some myself. If cars lasted forever there would be no more factories by now. Or maybe just Ice Falcon Auto Werks.

[Sean M]

There doesn't seem to be a non-SCA market right now; HEMA isn't generally using steel armor, and there's no big social/movie/tv/internet magnet around which to form a demand. On the other hand, lightsabers are big now, and there's several manufacturers making a living off lightsabers or a side income stream for jedi schools in their existing USAF fencing businesses. Maybe a few years ago you could have shown up to cosplay cons with a rack each of $500 or $2000 ironman suits and sold out both racks, but even that was a limited market.

Are you kidding? The number of people wearing plate armour is rapidly increasing, it is just that most of those new people are not SCA fighters in the United States. Have a closer look at some of the companies in eastern Europe which make armour for LARP, re-enactment combat, and the "beat them until they fall down" sports.

My impression is that the number of full-time armourers has also increased, but most of them are in India and most of the rest are in the Slavic countries, and none of them makes a really good living. This is a golden age for creative work, its just very very hard to turn that work from a side hustle into a day job.

[Sean M]

Also ... when I was doing historical fencing, there was nobody but Terry Tindal making dedicated kit, then Windrose Armoury offered steel sparring helmets, and now there are half a dozen companies just making soft armour (gloves, gorgets, jackets) for longsword, rapier, and sword-and-buckler tournaments. I don't think that these companies have many full-time employees, but I think they are a nice side business for some of the owners.

That is soft armour not plate armour or mail, but again it shows growth in the number of customers and number of makers.

[Peter Spätling]

I know of more than !40! full time armourers over here in Europe. I'm sure I forgot someone. (I'm not counting the employees here, I simply don't know how many everyone has, just the bosses) (If the numbers are true one Ukrainian one has 10 employees.) The number of armourers has been increasing rapidly in Europe over the last decade. I also know of at least three guys that will go professional in the next three years as well. So yes, there are quite a lot.
"got investment capital with an actual business plan" - If I understand this correctly, you create a business plan to get money the state offers for start ups. If so, then I probably will, at least I plan to. A friend of mine did so and got a huge amount of money. That was the second time he started a company, the first time without any money from the state, the second time with business plan and support. He said he would never do it without support again. It was also remarkably easy to get the money.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

India. Deepeeka and those guys. Most of their armour (I am being charitable) is utter crap, but it just doesn't seem to matter. Your typical SCAdian thinks hand made steel armour should be free, but will drop a wad of cash for something like gaming equipment without a second thought. That is not the market you want to sell to. It's just about the only market there is.

I think some of the East Europeans are treading water sort of OK, but they go bellyup once in awhile, so I'm not sure.

If you want to have a slight percentage chance to eke out a living, knives and swords. Armour has a negative profit margin built into it.

[Peter Spätling]

Armour has a negative profit margin built into it.

I have to disagree at this point. I'd say you can't get rich by making armour on your own. But you can afford a decent living. A metal worker journeyman in Germany earns ca. 2.700€ pre-tax. That 's reachable to be honest. 2.700€ : 4 = 675€ (per week) --> 675€ : 5 = 135€ (per day) --> 135€ : 8 = 16,875€. Now you do have to add expenses of course, so let 's just say your additional costs are 100% ---> 33,75€. If you calculate with 50€ per hour and really follow your own rule to charge 50€ per hour it can work. As I said, you won't get rich. But the "get yourself a sugar mommy" is utter crap in my opinion. You can make a decent living. You just have to charge enough and _every_time someone gives you work to do. Replaced a bunch of straps? It took you two hours? Well, sorry customer, but that will be 100€.

[Aaron]

I know of more than !40! full time armourers over here in Europe. I'm sure I forgot someone. (I'm not counting the employees here, I simply don't know how many everyone has, just the bosses) (If the numbers are true one Ukrainian one has 10 employees.) The number of armourers has been increasing rapidly in Europe over the last decade. I also know of at least three guys that will go professional in the next three years as well. So yes, there are quite a lot.
"got investment capital with an actual business plan" - If I understand this correctly, you create a business plan to get money the state offers for start ups. If so, then I probably will, at least I plan to. A friend of mine did so and got a huge amount of money. That was the second time he started a company, the first time without any money from the state, the second time with business plan and support. He said he would never do it without support again. It was also remarkably easy to get the money.

Details on funding routes please!

[Peter Spätling]

I know of more than !40! full time armourers over here in Europe. I'm sure I forgot someone. (I'm not counting the employees here, I simply don't know how many everyone has, just the bosses) (If the numbers are true one Ukrainian one has 10 employees.) The number of armourers has been increasing rapidly in Europe over the last decade. I also know of at least three guys that will go professional in the next three years as well. So yes, there are quite a lot.
"got investment capital with an actual business plan" - If I understand this correctly, you create a business plan to get money the state offers for start ups. If so, then I probably will, at least I plan to. A friend of mine did so and got a huge amount of money. That was the second time he started a company, the first time without any money from the state, the second time with business plan and support. He said he would never do it without support again. It was also remarkably easy to get the money.

Details on funding routes please!

Do you live in Germany?

[Aaron]

I know of more than !40! full time armourers over here in Europe. I'm sure I forgot someone. (I'm not counting the employees here, I simply don't know how many everyone has, just the bosses) (If the numbers are true one Ukrainian one has 10 employees.) The number of armourers has been increasing rapidly in Europe over the last decade. I also know of at least three guys that will go professional in the next three years as well. So yes, there are quite a lot.
"got investment capital with an actual business plan" - If I understand this correctly, you create a business plan to get money the state offers for start ups. If so, then I probably will, at least I plan to. A friend of mine did so and got a huge amount of money. That was the second time he started a company, the first time without any money from the state, the second time with business plan and support. He said he would never do it without support again. It was also remarkably easy to get the money.

Details on funding routes please!

Do you live in Germany?

Nope.

[Peter Spätling]

Nope.

Well, that 'll be a problem '^^ In a city nearby (from my point of view) is a company. You go there, present them your business plan, when they agree and the two parties work out a contract they will take care of doing all the paper work so you get your money, while they also get a part of the money to cover their expenses. Now you could go and do all the paper work yourself. But this is just so such an impenetrable topic that an expert has to deal with it. And hey, you just gotta convince them of your idea

[Aaron]

That sounds like a good system.

[coreythompsonhm]

Hmm. I have been thinking of moving to Germany for a few years now.

This thread is making me rethink my ideas.

The problem I see in the armor business/market is... people try to price match or beat competitors' pricing. Unfortunately this is a precident set by corporations as they have the capital to make this a feasible business model. Peter has it right... charge what things are worth. Trying to undercut the competitor only screws yourself, your competitor, and the customer.

My idea I may start working on for myself is taking out some of the time and work I have to personally hammer. This is just a hobby for me, if someone wants to commision something so be it. I am just looking at what can streamline my personal projects or other people's commisions.

[Peter Spätling]

"Trying to undercut the competitor only screws yourself, your competitor, and the customer." - Indeed. We (in Germany) simply can not charge the same prices as the guys in Czech Republic, Poland or Ukraine. It is just not possible. A lot of Re-enactors go to East Europe to buy their stuff. However there are still so many left that we do not have a shortage of customers. Also keep in mind, communications are easier with a native craftsman. As well as the fact that travelling distance is, most of the time, shorter. Instead of sitting in the car for 8 hours, or even taking the plane, a lot of people drive for 2-3 hours. That is doable. If I look at the prices the good armourers in the East charge, (Jiri, Radoslaus, Piotr, Roman and many more), their prices are not too different. There might be a difference of ~5.000€ for a full suit right now, but in the end. 5.000€, that is not much. If we assume you buy a full suit and use it for the next ten years... well then, do 5k really bother you? I do not think so. Otherwise no one would buy from us.

[Aaron]

The Small Business Administration (SBA) have some free online business courses that might help a beginning armourer moving into the business.

https://www.sba.gov/tools/sba-learning- ... h/training

Who knows, there might be a Federal grant in armouring if you did it as performance art.

[Nissan Maxima]

Slow Industries(Grettir Gauntlets) seems to do OK. But its kind of a boutique niche.

[raito]

Profit? Yes, I turned a profit the one year I was pro. That was the year I was done with college and looking for professional work.

Got rich? No, but I kept body and soul together.

Investment capital? Don't know, never tried. Possibly could have, given the documentation generated during that year.

Successful business plan? Yes, I had one for that year, and I made money. Plan is highly outdated for today's market, though.

Exit strategy was to pursue work in my field. I had gotten to the point where I knew what I needed to do to advance the business, and decided to not take the risk.

[Aaron]

This will take me awhile, but I've started going through the Classified posts to find out when an armoury showed up on the Archive (either mentioned or posted themselves). It is taking me longer than I planned. But here is what I have so far, and I'm not even though one year yet.

Armoury.....................First Mention on the Archive.....................Still in Business
Icefalcon.....................14-Dec-00.....................YES
James River Armoury.....................14-Dec-00.....................Unknown
Red Falcon.....................15-Dec-00.....................Unknown
Crimson Hammer.....................15-Dec-00.....................Unknown
Illusion Armoury.....................16-Dec-00.....................YES
DeCordene WireWorks.....................15-Dec-00.....................NO
Utopia Armoury.....................16-Dec-00.....................Unknown
Andy Ward.....................15-Dec-00.....................Unknown
Otto.....................15-Dec-00.....................NO
Hammered Wombat.....................15-Dec-00.....................NO
mrks.....................18-Dec-00.....................YES
Melchior.....................19-Dec-00.....................Unknown
Renstore.....................19-Dec-00.....................YES
Chivalry Sports.....................19-Dec-00.....................Unknown
Wise Ogre Armory.....................19-Dec-00.....................NO
Valentine Armouries.....................21-Dec-00.....................YES
Lonely Mountain Forge.....................22-Dec-00.....................Unknown
Mad Max.....................26-Dec-00.....................Unknown
Historic Enterprises.....................28-Dec-00.....................YES
Mad Matt.....................20-Dec-00.....................NO
Truehearth.....................30-Dec-00.....................YES

Dark Victory Armory.....................1-Jan-01.....................YES
accdntprone.....................2-Jan-01.....................YES
Michael Bolan.....................2-Jan-01.....................NO
eagle talon armoury.....................2-Jan-01.....................Unknown
wilmot.....................8-Jan-01.....................NO
White Mountain Armoury.....................13-Jan-01.....................Closed, with honor
Brian Price.....................12-Jan-01.....................NO
Dwarlock.....................18-Jan-01.....................Unknown
Armor Store.....................8-Jan-01.....................NO
Tournament Armoury.....................24-Jan-01.....................Unknown
Ugo.....................15-Jan-01.....................YES
Waldryk.....................29-Jan-01.....................Unknown
Armory of Westlig Stjerne / Armourworks.....................25-Jan-01.....................NO
Galon.....................4-Feb-01.....................NO
CLANG.....................7-Feb-01.....................YES
KragAxe Armoury.....................6-Feb-01.....................Unknown
Darkmoore Armoury.....................21-Feb-01.....................Closed, with honor
Silverthorne Armoury.....................14-Mar-01.....................Unknown
myraku.....................28-Mar-01.....................Unknown
Vitus von Atzinger.....................5-Apr-01.....................Closed, with honor
Brennus.....................8-May-01.....................Unknown

Yeah, I haven't figured out how to put in a table yet.

But, we have the data to do a post-mortum on the armouries that closed with clients still in the lurch. We should be able to figure out a pattern and make some sort of advice based class that is based on data.

[Galileo]

Dwarlock is retired - he's local-ish to me and gave away/sold most of his tools. Rumor has it he's returning to commercial status again in the future, but isn't there yet.


Vitus still takes commissions and sells on facebook. He is also an artist and sells paintings.


Brennus is now Jonathan Baird - no longer doing any re-enactment per his own post. Last on the Archive 1.5 years ago.

[Aaron]

Thanks Galileo!

This project will take a couple of months (part-time) but I think the data might be of value once I chew through the 17 years of data. I'm rather suprised how many armouries were in business in 2001 alone!

[Galileo]

I'd suggest using Excel or Google docs version of it to build a table. Keep it simpler for ya.

[Aaron]

I have it in Excel but it imports badly.

[losthelm]

Red falcon did Pennsic last year, more leather vests, wrap skirts, and Steampunk stuff than armour.
Andy ward still makes armour, though its not full time.

Armour sales at ren fairs and SCA tend to be inconsistent.
Doing better in the spring/summer and struggling January through April.
Craft shows and art markets have a similar ebb and flow.

It's not an easy busness as there are a lot of import pieces from India, Pakistan at cheap to decent quality, higher end stuff is being imported from the Ukraine and other Eastern Europe countries.

If you can diversify a little into other markets it can stabilize your income stream.

Darkwood armoury, Castile, are doing well selling rapier stuff to SCA and other groups.

Alchem armoury I think is a side hustle but does more than covering costs even with poor customer service. Rapier for SCA, crossbow prods for a few archery shops.
I'm not sure what they do as a real job.

[David Blackmane]

I thought Andy Ward got out of the game around 15+ yeas ago due to health issues.

[Aaron]

I thought that too, but his website is still up.

http://www.wardmetal.com/shop.html

And it looks like he is still taking orders, but only for gauntlets. That's a good business decision IMO, because the client knows what the product is, and that Andy has specialized.

White Mountain Armoury's website is still up.

http://whitemountainarmoury.com/

It announces that his armoury is closed, but still allows you too look at the beautiful armour he built. And, lets you download a pdf on how to make an arming coat.

http://whitemountainarmoury.com/pdfs/armingCoat.pdf

It's a nice touch, and I like it. Of all the exits I've seen from the armouring business, WMA has done it the best IMO. He left at the height of his game, never defrauded a customer, and made sure we could all appreciate his work still by leaving his website open to look at the helmets.

[Galileo]

Andy Ward got out 15 years ago, giving his patterns and blessing to Galon to make a go of it. Galon imploded (hazy memory, not sure on any details as I had no skin in that game - though he still posts here under another name) quite a few years back. Andy Ward opened back up 3-4 years ago. He's rather active on Facebook SCA sales groups.



I *did* have orders with Gundo and Lord Charles DeCordene when they dropped off the face of the Earth.

[Galileo]

James River Armoury's website is still up, but hasn't been updated since 2013.

[Aaron]

Galon made a lot of Archivers unhappy.