Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

[Mac]

This project is coming along VERY nice! And as a bonus I'm learning a lot about tassets as well. I "thought" I knew something about them before..I realize now that what I didnt know...is a lot! And I have much to learn.

Thank you! Good to know my dilettante dilemmas can make some value after all

Your "dilettante dilemmas" are happening at a much higher level than most.

Keep them coming!

Mac

[Gordon Thompson]

You dont have to tell me twice!

So if I may, there's a thing in our discussion that bugs me:

(...)
The upper right shows how the tasset might be extended to reach the center-line of the fauld. The curves formed below this extension outline the saddle. The saddle edges are always hemmed.
(...)



Mac

Hemming saddle edges makes perfect sense, strenghtening tassets and lesser chaffing of saddle leather are obvious reasons.
. However, in st.Florian statue , seems to me they arent hemmed, although their "saddle shape" tells me they should be. And if Im seeing correctly, you left tassets unhemmed in your project also. If that would be a sculptor's mistake, I bet you would fix that in your armour, to make things as they should be. Whats up with that?

(There are also unhemmed tassets in art examples provided by Christian - I assume "bat wing" ones werent meant for riding and in that case suit should have other pair of tassets to use on horseback.)

[Rene K.]

Have in mind that the hemmed borders mostly are stopping ribs. It is not that much necessary for saving your saddle, but more to save your groin against slip off stabbings or other pointy things. In my practical uses i had no tasset contact with the saddle, whatever form the tassets had. And have a look at the most 16.th tassets or faulds, they seldom have a folded border on the sides, more often only a decorative bead.

[Mac]

So if I may, there's a thing in our discussion that bugs me:

(...)
The upper right shows how the tasset might be extended to reach the center-line of the fauld. The curves formed below this extension outline the saddle. The saddle edges are always hemmed.
(...)

Mac

Hemming saddle edges makes perfect sense, strenghtening tassets and lesser chaffing of saddle leather are obvious reasons.
. However, in st.Florian statue , seems to me they arent hemmed, although their "saddle shape" tells me they should be. And if Im seeing correctly, you left tassets unhemmed in your project also. If that would be a sculptor's mistake, I bet you would fix that in your armour, to make things as they should be. Whats up with that?

(There are also unhemmed tassets in art examples provided by Christian - I assume "bat wing" ones werent meant for riding and in that case suit should have other pair of tassets to use on horseback.)

You've definitely caught my out one way or another.

I should never have said "always". It seem like there are exceptions to almost all rules. Let us say, then, "The saddle edges are usually hemmed".

As Rene points out, this is not just for the sake of the saddle. Some sort of hem along that edge can keep a point from getting between saddle and thigh... or from simply sliding off the tasset and into the opposite thigh, if fighting on foot.

With the St. Florian armor, I tried to trust the sculptor as much as I thought I could. Frankly, I'd forgotten that the saddle edges were un-hemmed on that armor.

Mac

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

I have not been keeping up with this thread! Another effigy showing one of those laminated 'gothic' cod pieces!
I am currently mounting a 'gothic' suit, and I will give you four guesses which parts need to be 'restored', as they are just not to be had at any price. Well, except perhaps for a besague or two in private hands. A Pinterest board with surviving 'gothic' tassets would be a very small page, along with surviving 15th century sabatons, as some intense study to figure out how I should make the restorations showed. I couldn't find much at all. Sculpture and illustrations are our best sources, as already noted. What gets me are the clear depictions of tassets mounted in such a way that they are held on with two straps each that actually leave a small gap between the fauld and the tops of the tassets. It is also clear that there were an awful lot of ugly German tassets out there! Interesting, too, is how some depictions show them far to the outside and others so close in the center they leave the sides of the hips exposed.
It does seem indeed that the 'ragged leaf' type was popular, at least with artists.

[Mac]

I have not been keeping up with this thread! Another effigy showing one of those laminated 'gothic' cod pieces!

Dang! I'd missed that!



I've just pinned him to Tom B's Gothic Codpiece board.

Have you got a theory about these? I mean.. why the articulation? Is it just to make the assembly a bit more yielding when it's pressed against the saddle?... or am I missing something?

Mac

[Rene K.]

Because it is more gothic fashion and more simple to build. Maybe the interaction with the cuises is better when articulated.

[John Vernier]

I think the articulation of the brayette may be more about fit to the body than fit to the saddle. If you consider these as being conceived to be worn rather like a mail brayette - perhaps incorporated into a mail or fabric brief, or at least tied on in the same fashion, with a waist belt and a tail tied up between the legs, and all rather tight to the body, then a little flexibility will make it easier to fit snugly, and that articulation might be welcome while walking or riding as well. Of course it would be possible to make a piece of solid plate which would serve, but it would require more skillful (and intimate) fitting to make it work well.

I don't have any experience with brayettes, but it seems to me that the common mid-16th century type which is a solid plate mounted at a single point at the top is really just a glorified besagew, and perhaps more of a style statement than a functional item. Of course more sophisticated measures were designed for foot tournament suits where better protection was essential. These articulated gothic examples seem like they are trying to be functional in a way that later wearers seem to have abandoned.

[Rene K.]

The few 16.th examples of this thing made from sheetmetal you can only find on full closed tournament armour for foot combat, so i'm shure it is not very usefull on a saddle. The codpieces from other 16.th suits often hanging in the faulds and way to high to be anatomical corect, but they are in the position where the where set on fashion. And normally you had a armoured saddle to do the safety job, when used with a heavy field armour.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

This is yet another of those things that has me regretting that I am not a horseman, or I would do some experimenting. The impression I get is that one piece codpieces work poorly on horseback, hence made detachable. I would never do without one on foot, however. I can only hypothesize that the laminated 'gothic' construction is intended to make them more wearable on horseback, a good thing indeed if the battle requires changing roles at the drop of a hat, which is an impression I have developed about warfare in the Germanic lands, as opposed to Italy. The famous 'Siegmund gothic' (A 62 KMW) is called a horseman's armour, but is lightweight and works well on foot, too. Maximilian fought on foot at Guinegate in 1479, but what equipment he wore for that event, who knows. I think that the laminated codpiece would look fantastic with the 'Sigmund gothic'.

[Scott Martin]

For a heretical view, is this piece articulated at all?

This appearance would be the same (in marble) if it was a solid piece which was fluted to stylistically match the rest of the harness. Articulation could result in shearing at the plate edges, which is something that would be "less than ideal" in use. A solid plate would provide much better energy dissipation than a collection of plates. Brigandine armour is much easier to fit than plate, and these folks aren't wearing brigandines!

IMO if you are spending the cash for this type of armour, your are paying to have it fit right...

[Mac]

Because it is more gothic fashion and more simple to build. Maybe the interaction with the cuises is better when articulated.

Hmmmm.... the ability to flex sideways might be useful when one of those tall cuisses try to occupy the same space.

Now, I'm wondering if "what we see is what we get" or whether there are reflexed edges that stay under the cuisses. That would give the codpiece more bearing surface as well as controlling the how it interacted with the cuisses.

Mac

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

The foot-combat armours all have one piece cups, though sometimes attached to 'wings' on either side. I could have posted all of the surviving ones, but that struck me as... well. This is enough to handle the 'fluted' hypothesis, though that perhaps was done on occasion.

[Mac]

I think the articulation of the brayette may be more about fit to the body than fit to the saddle. If you consider these as being conceived to be worn rather like a mail brayette - perhaps incorporated into a mail or fabric brief, or at least tied on in the same fashion, with a waist belt and a tail tied up between the legs, and all rather tight to the body, then a little flexibility will make it easier to fit snugly, and that articulation might be welcome while walking or riding as well. Of course it would be possible to make a piece of solid plate which would serve, but it would require more skillful (and intimate) fitting to make it work well.

I had not considered the idea that these might be a thing that was a straight swap for the mail flap of a traditional breyette. This would be an interesting experiment.

I don't have any experience with brayettes, but it seems to me that the common mid-16th century type which is a solid plate mounted at a single point at the top is really just a glorified besagew, and perhaps more of a style statement than a functional item. Of course more sophisticated measures were designed for foot tournament suits where better protection was essential. These articulated gothic examples seem like they are trying to be functional in a way that later wearers seem to have abandoned.

Very true. Those 16th C cods that hang from the fauld must needs twist left and right with the wearer's upper torso. As such, they are not something that one could ever really put his junk into and expect it to stay there.

By contrast, there are some codpieces which are broad a the top like the equivalent piece of clothing. These are, I think, intended to be worn directly over the body and really did contain as well as protect the genitals. There are a couple of these in the Philly collection, but somehow I can't get Dirk B to fully appreciate their importance.

I wonder if we need to start a whole different thread about codpieces... they are very misunderstood.

Mac

[Mac]

The foot-combat armours all have one piece cups, though sometimes attached to 'wings' on either side. I could have posted all of the surviving ones, but that struck me as... well. This is enough to handle the 'fluted' hypothesis, though that perhaps was done on occasion.

Here is a pic of that may be the original armor which that statue is based on. Again, it's clearly riveted pieces. (It's also got enough volume to be comfortable. )



I wish we had more pics of this.

Mac

[Mac]

I wonder if we need to start a whole different thread about codpieces... they are very misunderstood.

Mac

I've started a codpiece thread here.

Mac

[Konstantin the Red]

Thank you, things got a lot clearer, I will follow those confirmed examples. And that cross-eyed horse with tongue sticking out is pure gold.

Most binocular equid I ever saw.

@Mac: what an improvement over the nad-tasset of fame!

I suspect, though, that "lamed codpiece" isn't the term we'd want to pick. And codpieces are fabric anyway -- I understand these tin-bits to be brayettes, just not brayettes de mailles.

[Gordon Thompson]

Theres not much going on here on AA lately (summertime, I guess), so heres a new steel doodles, I managed to do it (with a great help of Scott Martin's patterns) during three workshop sessions - I have a hard time lately to find time and a peace of mind to do more:







Now its waiting for next steps, including main plates tweaking and trimming (I assume there may be a need to reshape it in some way, but I dont know what and where, so Im counting on you guys). Main f*uckups I know of is "ahermetic" hinge (you can see sky through it) and ugly "step" on closing side of top lame. On the other hand, my first attempt at outward roll went better than I expected. Damn, I think it may be better than my previous 'regular' hems.

Edit: I might want to rethink my last two sentences - on last pic Ive noticed some serious waviness on that roll, but only on a front lame. Back one seems to be ok. I will try to fix it

[Gordon Thompson]

...aaand its better now.

[Johann ColdIron]

...aaand its better now.

It does look better!

Hinge cuts are hard to fix if they are truly over generously cut. Test pieces before hand are usually the best defense. Frequent test fits the second. Adjustments to each side of a hinge are multiplied by two when brought together.

I think it might get better visually if you make sure that the front and back collar hoops are the same radius at the ends. The front one looks to have a bit tighter curve at the hinge than the rear. A few blows with a narrowish plastic or leather hammer right on the roll at the hinge while in a swage block can unify that curve.

[Gordon Thompson]

Thank you, Johann! I havent noticed that until you pointed that out.

Edit: Is it just me, or flaws are generally easier to see on pictures, than "in the flesh"?

[Carter]

Is it just me, or flaws are generally easier to see on pictures, than "in the flesh"?

I certainly find them easier to see in the pictures. I think it's a combination of being static, necessarily having let some time pass, and entering a different set of mind.

[Johann ColdIron]

Thank you, Johann! I havent noticed that until you pointed that out.

Edit: Is it just me, or flaws are generally easier to see on pictures, than "in the flesh"?

Some are, some aren't.

Construction details like symmetry or divergent angles are easier to see. 3D curves and how they flow together in armour is harder. It is one of the challenges of trying to make armour from limited photos.

Some issues can only be seen by those that did not make them. Our brains think they know what they are doing but are often mistaken!

[Gordon Thompson]

I guess you can say Im reaching next levels at making armour-shaped-objects, because my inventory of unfinished pieces is getting bigger:






Keep in mind that those lowest parts under poleyns(I forgot the name for it - edit: got it now, demi-greaves) are basically not shaped, theyre practically just bend to be there for now - I figured out it doesnt make much sense to work on them much before doing greaves. There will be trimming, especially at upper part which is just bolted together for now, and more fluting of course.
I ripped one of poleyns during "cresting", so I got an interesting experience of doing an element from beginning to match the other one, instead of doing both simultaneously - it went surprisingly well.

When I trying them on, upper edge of cuisses is just at those protruding parts of my hip bones height - Im guessing theyre not too short then.

As always, Im looking forward for input and critique.

[Gordon Thompson]

I have a qestion, guys.

This is Goll's 2367, I cant see any rivets for leather-to-lames connection in places Ive marked.

Is that mean that leather straps is just a lining and theres no leather articulation (except that one strap in the center, of course) ergo, is there a "hard" rivet articulation under lining in marked places?

I know leather articulation is usually(always?) here on gothic cuisses, but Im running some trouble on upper part and I would really like to try hard articulation here in side plates(and maybe in front ones too) and I hoped that could be an example to follow.

[Galileo]

Is it a leather on one side, sliding rivet on the other?

[Gordon Thompson]

Well, visible sliding rivets and overall cuisse articulation are pretty clear to me, but Im asking about articulation in "red circles" specifically. If it IS leather articulation, where are rivets fastening leather to lames(or maybe I just cant see them and making a fool of myself)?
And if there are no those rivets, which are essential to leather articulation, then maybe that leather is nothing more than lining, lames are riveted together and its supposed to work that way?
Or maybe it should be considered as a renovator's mistake?

(Sorry if I cant make my point clear, my english is a little bit rusty)

Edit: stylistical corrections and elaborate

[Christian Wiedner]

It is a bad picture. You cant see much. I am pretty sure there are rivets (how otherwise would the front hold the curve?) And even if there really are no rivets you cant be sure if the leather is original.
I say (95%) it is constructed the normal way on leather.
Unfortunately you cant see it either on the other leg ref_arm_2836

[Gordon Thompson]

Thank you, Christian:)

Another question to clear my doubts, if I may:

How high should reach upper edge of gothic cuisse? What is the margin, what heights should be considered as too low and too high? Im wondering if mine arent too low - heres a picture in attachment.
As well, im not sure if rerebrace cut isnt a little too high, but I think I have to wait for a couter to tell.

(Edit: dont mind protruding front fauld, Im aware and will try to fix it)

[Christian Wiedner]

I am sure there is no rule and there will be a lot of different examples
It should offer the maximum protection with as less restriction as possible. Your coverage is just spot on - so I guess you are on the lower end.
I think you can you can go at least as high as the upper edge of the terminal lame if not even the upper edge of the second lame.
Can you show us a front view?

[Christian Wiedner]

Here is what I did

Bildschirmfoto 2021-03-17 um 00.06.39.png (467.61 KiB) Viewed 2152 times

Bildschirmfoto 2021-03-17 um 00.04.23.png (932.67 KiB) Viewed 2152 times

[Gordon Thompson]

Those are sexy legs.

Of course, heres front shot:

[Christian Wiedner]

Nice!
Yea in the front view the rerebrace is really cut out to high.
For the legs. The main plate could have been higher, but I think they are ok the way they are. If you want you can add one or even two lames. It may happen that you have to cut a bit of the inside of the thighs if you get in conflict with the groin

[Gordon Thompson]

Rerebrace: goddammit, I knew it.
Legs: I actually did a little trimming inside thighs after taking those pictures, it was already a little too deep. And I was thinking about doing additional lame(you assured me its a good idea), Im already figuring out how this will affect top plates edge alignment. I may have an idea or two how to counter it.

I know why many armourers have deppression issues - compulsive thinking "is it good as it is? Can it may be better? Can I make it better? Should I redo it? Tweak it? Trim it? Will it make it better or ruin it? Will that pattern will work as it should?" sure can take its toll on mental wellness, especially when you dont have much spare time and you want to do as much as possible, or youre on a deadline. Ive encountered similar stresses in the past, but less intensively. Kind of funny, since this isnt even a commission.

Peculiar activity, armoursmithing.

[Johann ColdIron]

Rerebrace: goddammit, I knew it.
Legs: I actually did a little trimming inside thighs after taking those pictures, it was already a little too deep. And I was thinking about doing additional lame(you assured me its a good idea), Im already figuring out how this will affect top plates edge alignment. I may have an idea or two how to counter it.

I know why many armourers have deppression issues - compulsive thinking "is it good as it is? Can it may be better? Can I make it better? Should I redo it? Tweak it? Trim it? Will it make it better or ruin it? Will that pattern will work as it should?" sure can take its toll on mental wellness, especially when you dont have much spare time and you want to do as much as possible, or youre on a deadline. Ive encountered similar stresses in the past, but less intensively. Kind of funny, since this isnt even a commission.

Peculiar activity, armoursmithing.

It is peculiar. Three dimensional wearable sculpture that must function properly or you DIE!

The good thing is there is a ton of variation in the individual component parts and you can usually find an example to justify which way you decide as long as you hew close to the known examples. I spend at least as much time staring at the armour in progress as I do working on it. Perhaps more. Lots of time with a sharpie imagining cuts and what implications they will produce. Even then sometimes patterns just won't work or you move the metal in a way that fixing it will take longer than redoing it.

As a profession I think I would find it stressful making others happy with the final product. That is why for most of my work I am the client.