Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

[Gordon Thompson]

Yea... Nowadays, most likely death cause for a failed armor is embarassment. How lucky we are

[Christian Wiedner]

Just put some additional lames to the cut out like on A60 and A62 in vienna.
As Johann stated there is almost always an example

Bildschirmfoto 2021-03-18 um 11.11.39.png (1.01 MiB) Viewed 2623 times

[Indianer]

heres front shot:

Are the upper lames of the cuisse slightly dished, like, say, elbow and knee lames, or even a fauld lame, or are they really just tubular?

[Gordon Thompson]

Oh, glorious examples! Thank you, Christian. I started to juggling with ideas how to do some kind of gothic couter without a heat source now. If I succeed, I will be able to see how big will be the gap and how to fill it with rerebrace lames.

Indianer: All upper lames(front and rear) in my cuisses are slightly dished. Keep in mind that if youd just bend them, they wouldve become slightly anticlastic. I tried to do just opposite of that.

[Scott Martin]

Hey Gordon, those have a very nice shape - I really like the "hourglass" fluting pattern on these legs. Did you have a set in mind as the basis for these?

How much shaping did you do for the main cuisse plates, and how / when did you do this shaping? I assume you shaped and then fluted, but with this pattern you may have fluted and then shaped...

Gothic legs are on my "to do" list and I'm still trying to wrap my head around the lack of a stop rib at the top of the main cuisse plate (which you see on *all* Milanese armour of the period, and see in some early 16th century German leg harnesses.

What "pin" mechanism are you using from the greave to the cuisse? Most of the Milanese harnesses I have seen use a central pin and a strap to secure the demigreave on the pin, Many of the German harnesses use 2 offset pins (at ~"2 oclock" and "10 oclock" with the flute line being "12") with one of these pins being a regular pin, and the second being a turning pin providing a mechanical (metal on metal) lock.

Scott

[Gordon Thompson]

Thank you, Scott!

I didnt chose a specific example to base on, I just took features I like from couple different ones.

Main plate: I shaped it first, then I fluted (I plan to do more fluting at the sides). "How" is a troubling question for me to answer, since I did not specifically planned how to shape it, I just guessed pattern shape and i started to "sketch" with a hammer to achieve 3D shape that will be ok for my "sculptor's eye".
I guess simpliest answer would be "main plate is dished overall and inner edge area is a little 'counterdished', as I named it - a little tapping from the outside to curve the other way".
One of the archivers asked me the same question and I told him I'll try to take a pictures (or sketches) of curvatures, if they come up reasonably I will post them here as well for you and the others.

I didnt used any cuisse-greave fixation method yet, since those are my first cuisses ever, and I didnt do any greaves yet. But Im thinking about pin and strap option, since I like the look of it. But it is not written in stone. Are there significant pros and cons of different methods?

[Gordon Thompson]

Here is what I came up with. Ive traced inner and outer edges, and put a ruler against front crease to show curve. Again, all places are slightly dished against RRT anvil and inside area of thigh is bended inwards, I dont know how to describe it better. If you have specific questions or I can do more pics, let me know.

[Scott Martin]

I didnt used any cuisse-greave fixation method yet, since those are my first cuisses ever, and I didnt do any greaves yet. But Im thinking about pin and strap option, since I like the look of it. But it is not written in stone. Are there significant pros and cons of different methods?

Hey Gordon, Pics are being weird about downloading so I'll take a look at them when I have more time.

The "pin and strap" is probably the easiest. The Milanese style tends to put the pin on the central crease for both the demigreave and the greave, with a strap on the demigreave (where you see every SCA leg harness that doesn't use greaves put the bottom strap). German (and Fleminsh?) armourers would often put the pin off to the side so that it is on a "flat" which is easier to align, especially if you do 2 pins.

If you do the "hard" articulation, then you will need 2 pins. One is the typical round pin (with a round hole) and f you think of the second as a "medieval wingnut" you won't be far off. the hole is generally an ellipse or oval, and the "pin" is a stud with a round cross section the thickness of your plate, which then flares out. Push the pin through the hole, twist and it will lock the plate. I'll see if I have photos of the Peffinhauser leg harness where I got to play with this, it''s a neat system.

The main advantage is that the "hard" method means that you don't need to worry about straps stretching (or in period being cut) but you do need to inspect them regularly. Both were extensively used so "real world" testing didn't result in a clear winner.

Scott

[Gordon Thompson]

On my end pictures open with no issues. If you want, I can deliver them to you some other way.

You intrigued me about two pins idea, I went through my armour folders and couldnt find nothing of it so I'll be grateful for pics.

[Gordon Thompson]

Hi guys, not much going on here, eh?

Last year I thought almost none of armour, too much going on, too much new responsibilities. Had a little free time lately, so I touched a subject again.

After a spectacular failure of cold making couters, I borrowed roofer's torch and was pleasantly surprised what a heat can do:

I also added arms to my stand and mounted pauldrons a little further from the neck. I think its overall looking better, more natural, and elbow cuts are not as high as before, theyre may be ok now. It made a problem with lower plate of bevor - it sticks out, instead of hide under pauldrons. I can live with that, but any ideas what to do(if anything)?

Another issue is pauldrons can catch under backplate with wider arm movement now. I will think about it.

[wcallen]

Looking good.
As to the pauldrons catching under the backplate when you move forward, I have encountered that problem. There can be a lot of underlying issues that lead to this.
The most basic thing that can cause this is when the upper edge of the pauldron at the back is more vertical than normal. Normally the back is higher than the front.
This allows the front to roll up and forward so that you can move the arm, but the back stays over the backplate. If you look closely at real pauldrons from the side, you will see this.
I have also seen that it can be aggravated when the backplate doesn't fit closely.
I have a little of both issues when I wear the armour that was NOT made for me - Jeff Hedgecock's St. Florian.

Wade

[Mac]

The thing where the pauldrons get stuck in the backplate is very vexing. As Wade says, there are a number of things that contribute. Let me add a couple to the list....

--If there is very little space between the pauldron and the backplate, it's easier for the wing to get stuck because it slides along the back until it can drop in. A bit more clearance can help, but I would not make it more than a finger and a half or it will look sloppy.
--If the whole pauldron tends to raise up as a unit when you lift your arm, the back corner is more likely to drop in and get stuck. Some means of getting the upper lames to actually articulate can help. Instead of pointing to a leather tab on the first lame, you might try pointing directly up through holes in lame. This will tend to fix the lame more firmly to the shoulder and force the articulations to do something rather than just going along for the ride. The effect will be to limit the movement of the back corner.

Mac

[Indianer]

Hey guys, not to highjack this, but: I've searched my Goll folders for historic examples of narrow, vertical Pauldrons like those Gordon made. Could'nt find any. Anyone have a Goll # for me, maybe? Or do these exist just on paintings,in murals and as effigies?

Best, Indi

[Rene K.]

This from churburg castle for example. But this shape is very rare to find.

[Gordon Thompson]

A humble update:

Maille skirt added front and back. Butted of course, but it took a while anyway. Attachment is makeshift for now (dont mind a little hiccup at the front)

Ive assembled all pieces I have.