Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

[Tableau]

I'm sort of blown away by the contrast between the amateur sounding question in the thread title and the super nice work that you're making now, within the first page of the thread and only a few months.

Very well done!

[Gordon Thompson]

Mac: I saw your cardboard and sketch things in your posts, I shouldve known better not to skip it. But probably I wouldnt know what to aim for without somebody pointing it out first. thank you for guidance.

Now Im thinking of attaching fingers - Ive tried your way with lame under knuckle rider and two leather straps, but theres something wrong with it , knuckle rider kinda not pivoting and only fingers moving, creating a gap. I will produce a picture if I stuck:)

Tableau: thank you, Im flattered, but its not that good really... I figured out satin finish mask hammer marks and roughness, if you take a closer look its all there. But on the other hand, maybe that is a point to cheat a little

[Gordon Thompson]

Ok guys, after couple of tries, wasting some leather and a reasonable amount of bad language I decided to drop Mac's idea and attach fingers in simpliest way I can came up with. I guess I can live with two additional rivets on knuckle rider. Edit - I will put a leather washer or something on those rivets between fingers and knuckle to secure some space for motion range.

[Mac]

Ok guys, after couple of tries, wasting some leather and a reasonable amount of bad language I decided to drop Mac's idea and attach fingers in simpliest way I can came up with. I guess I can live with two additional rivets on knuckle rider. Edit - I will put a leather washer or something on those rivets between fingers and knuckle to secure some space for motion range.

I ended up using a pair of leathers to secure the "crotch" of the two finger assemblies to the knuckle rider.... but if the thing you are doing works, then you have the advantage of simplicity.



Mac

[Gordon Thompson]

I was heavily inspired by that project of yours, obviously. Im still waiting for update (last pic of it was thumbs progress, if I recall)

Aside of gothic, what is that thing (hole?) on left wrist here and what is it for?

Edit: and how the cuff plate is put together? I cant see any rivets except those below hem..

[Mac]

I was heavily inspired by that project of yours, obviously. Im still waiting for update (last pic of it was thumbs progress, if I recall)

I'll be returning to that project soon.

Aside of gothic, what is that thing (hole?) on left wrist here and what is it for?

That is a threaded hole for attaching a reinforcing plate. It's the 16th C equivalent of one of these.


They are used in places where the armor is too thin to form up meaningful threads. In practice, that's typically everywhere but breastplates and helmet skulls.

Edit: and how the cuff plate is put together? I cant see any rivets except those below hem..

Those cuffs will have been closed by flush rivets. There will be low profile rivet heads on the inside, and the outsides will have been set into countersunk holes so that they could be ground off level.

The other thing you need to know here is that the underlap will have been "set" or "stepped" so that the outer surface can be ground and polished. That is to say, the double thickness of the joint has been moved to the inside of the cuff so it looks nice on the outside. This is easier than it sounds, and is done by hammering the rivet joint from the outside while supporting it from the inside on a fluting stake. The stake needs to be positioned just to the side of the joint. This is one of those "secrete techniques".

Mac

[Gordon Thompson]

Ok, I got out of gothic gauntlets hell - at last. I dropped the idea of putting washers between fingers and knuckle rider, motion range is more than enough to clench a fist. One of biggest f*uckups was my inability to bring cuff rolls to a point, so I had to be creative.

Heres a higher resolution, if anybody interested: https://www.deviantart.com/gordonthomps ... -812230793

Opinions and critique welcome and appriciated.

[Gordon Thompson]

Hi guys, Im playing with another gothic armour shaped item, despite chronic lack of time.

Again, 1.5mm H17 steel.

It took me about 80 hours so far.

Im frustrated with my inability to achieve smooth surfaces.

[Indianer]

If you mean that kaleidoscopic shimmer visible on the last pic - i like it. That fractal reflexion gives your piece a whole own character What do you planish with/on?

[Gordon Thompson]

Yes, thats it. And some kind of slight "bag of marbles" look i couldnt get rid of here and there. And also all kinds of uneven surfaces and hammer marks, especially around flutes.
I didnt want to grind it too much due to not very thick steel I used.

I didnt planished it per se, before fluting I tried to even a surface from the inside on railroad track "anvil", I guess you can call it planishing.

Basically I could leave it as it is, but its a little irritating:)

[Indianer]

I am the greatest fan of RRT anvils there is, but for planishing such shapes they really don´t do, that´s right.. I mean, you could fashion one end of it into a cow tongue. Still, have a ball stake of sorts? Or a mushroom stake? I hear people mentioning cannon balls from ebay, if Halberds here on the forum is out of business (don´t know, maybe not). They are usually crushing balls from the mining industry, but that don´t really matter.

[Gordon Thompson]

I do have a ball stake, but couldnt bring myself to try planish it from the outside. I dont have wide faced hammer and first tries with regular polished hammers werent satisfied - edges of hammer left marks on steel.I will have to take on that eventually.

[Mac]

Gorden,

I can't tell from the pics you posted whether the problem is about planishing or grinding, or both.

In any case, it's clear that you have talent, and that your expectations are outpacing your experience. That's a good sign, really. The world of modern armor is full of people who would be delighted be able to do what you have done, and who can't see any of its faults. The fact that you are dissatisfied is what will drive you forward.

Can we see some details of the particular areas you are concerned about?

Mac

[Mac]

While you are gathering some pics, let me say a couple of things about planishing.

First of all, I really hate to have to use the word "planish" because it has come to be thought of as more of a magical formula than a goal directed process. We don't need to cover every bit of the armor with neatly overlapping little blows like the silversmiths do. We need only get the surfaces "fair" and "plane" enough that the they can be ground and polished. Ideally, the processes that formed the piece will produce those results without a separate "planishing" step. Planishing, per se, should be applied only where it's needed; as a sort of correction to the surface. It's not a thing that needs to be done everywhere as a matter of course.

If the surfaces are not "plane" or "fair", then we must use any means to bring them to that state. We can hammer the work from the outside, or from the inside. If we work from the outside, then the hammer needs to be more of less flat, and the stake must be able to support the work. This will require a selection of stakes, but you will find that you keep coming back to the same ones most of the time. If we work from the inside, the hammer must be rounded enough to get into the curve of the plate, and the anvil (or stake) must be some shape that will support the plate.

This might be summed up in an over-simplistic way, thus....
--A flat hammer and a round stake for outside work.
--A round hammer and a flat stake for inside work.

The thing about rail road track and similar surfaces is that they are frequently too curved to be right for most inside work. For that, a flat (or nearly flat) anvil surface is typically best.

But, I'm clearly rambling here....

Mac

[Gordon Thompson]

Sorry for those previous pics, I had to shrink them due to 100kb limit here.

Heres new pics in higher resolution, I tried to emphasize those things we are talking about.

https://www.deviantart.com/gordonthomps ... 3543/flaws

I didnt realized how bad it really is until now, theres literally no good spot here


There is also a picture of most of tools I use. I have also drill and angle grinder. No belt sander and such.

[Indianer]

Here´s my take on it...

gordonthompson small 2.jpg (90.2 KiB) Viewed 1663 times

Fluting Hammer (top, bottom is better for creasing - the kind of flute that is more like a kink or a fold, with a flat incline)

fFH-FH.JPG

(65.3 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Others can tell you more/ better things
Best, Indi

[Mac]

Gorden,

The job of the hammer is to bring the work up to a state where it can be ground to smoothness. So far as I can tell, most of what's visible in those pics is at that state. There are a few places that need to be corrected with a hammer, but most of what I see there would come out OK with a more aggressive initial grind.

Flap wheels don't really remove hammer marks. They just round off the edges and shine them up a bit. There are situations where they work great, but they are seldom the best tool to start off with.

What you need is a means of grinding off the hammer marks and leveling the surfaces. I use a belt sander or a hard abrasive wheel for most of this. The old guys used huge grinding wheels, and perhaps files for this step. Whatever you use, it has to be used with care and discretion. Any tool that is aggressive enough to remove hammer marks can do serious damage to the surface with a moment's inattention.

In my opinion, your next step is to experiment with grinding methods until you find something that works for you. Watch some videos, and see what other armorers are using. Search here in the Archive to see what techniques have been discussed.

Don't be tempted to do those grinding experiments on your good work. Make up some test pieces, or mess around with things from your scrap pile.

Mac

[Gordon Thompson]

Indianer:
Of course you are right with flutes - I remember doing that particular ones with round hammer. After reading your reply I went to a workshop, and tried hammer more similar to fluting hammer - it will smooth it out.
For "red" area - I recall I tried to fix distortion from fluting by tapping it from inside, but couldnt find proper support. It pushed material out as I wanted to, but it created uneven surface. I will planish it from outside or grind it, we will see.

Mac:
I did initial grind with lamellar disc, its harder than flapping wheels, so I thought it will level surfaces in similar way like hard wheel would do. Most noticeable effect was on flutes. Maybe I didnt ground enough(I didnt want to ruin anything) , or it simply didnt work.
You said most of surfaces is ready for grinding - you mean backplate and cullet too? It looks horrible on picture (to be honest, it looks lil better "in the flesh" ), I dont know if steel is not too thin to level all that(1.5mm).

Thank you guys for your help, time to think about grinding methods.

[Rene K.]

Hi,

What Mac said. I also use lamellar discs from 60, 80 to 120 grit and this selfmade machine with different wheels. Fo the surface i use a foam padded wheel or the slac belt of the grinder.

After rough frinding i have greasless compound covered wheels to make a fine finish.
In the beginning the learning of grinding is the next level in armouring. Remember, this was a specialided job

[Gordon Thompson]

Thanks, Rene:)

I used 120grit lamellar disc - I will try your method from 60 grit on some scrap.

I have a question about your method - I presume you use ordinary angle grinder for lamellar disc - do you hold grinder in your hand or you fixing it (in a vice for example)?

[Mac]

Mac:
I did initial grind with lamellar disc, its harder than flapping wheels, so I thought it will level surfaces in similar way like hard wheel would do.

Those guys cut like a "house afire" when they are brand new, but the working surfaces wear out quickly and then they cut badly. I sometimes "freshen them up" by running then against a coarse wheel to remove the material which has had all its abrasive worn away. this works, but it's tedious.

Most noticeable effect was on flutes.

The flutes are a place where these wheels can work OK I like to use a (well dressed) edge of a large hard grinding disc, and follow it up with a couple of grits (80 and 180) of paper discs on a foam backing.

Maybe I didnt ground enough(I didnt want to ruin anything) , or it simply didnt work.
You said most of surfaces is ready for grinding - you mean backplate and cullet too? It looks horrible on picture (to be honest, it looks lil better "in the flesh" ),

I think it's more a matter of the wrong tool for the job. The rough grind needs to be done with something that will simply cut what's put in its path, and not flow around it. It needs to work like a file.

Sure, such a tool will be able to ruin things quickly, but as Rene said, finishing is a skilled operation. With experience, you'll hardly ever ruin things.

I dont know if steel is not too thin to level all that(1.5mm).

That's plenty of thickness, but you still need to work with discretion. Take a grinding pass or two and check for places that are too deep to grind out. When you find them, stop and bring them up with the hammer. There can be a lot of back and forth between the rough grind and the hammer before you are ready to move on to finer grits and softer presentations of them.

Mac

[Konstantin the Red]

. . . the hammer must be rounded enough to get into the curve of the plate, and the anvil (or stake) must be some shape that will support the plate.

This might be summed up in an over-simplistic way, thus....
--A flat hammer and a round stake for outside work.
--A round hammer and a flat stake for inside work.

The thing about rail road track and similar surfaces is that they are frequently too curved to be right for most inside work. For that, a flat (or nearly flat) anvil surface is typically best.

While we're at it, Mac, what would you say of soft-hammer-hard-anvil (which is flat) forming? I was very impressed with the results I got using a "hammer on air" strike with a heavy rawhide mallet, and how swiftly it went in mild steel. Produced a pretty smooth curve first go.

[Mac]

While we're at it, Mac, what would you say of soft-hammer-hard-anvil (which is flat) forming? I was very impressed with the results I got using a "hammer on air" strike with a heavy rawhide mallet, and how swiftly it went in mild steel. Produced a pretty smooth curve first go.

I am unfamiliar with this technique.

Mac

[Rene K.]

I use small one hand grinders, explicit the blue bosch machines with speed dial. I use the machine in one hand while holding the pieces in the other. Over 20 years this gave me very good results, but bad results in my arms. So i built me more grindingstations, what gives me a more authentic grinding result.

[Konstantin the Red]

While we're at it, Mac, what would you say of soft-hammer-hard-anvil (which is flat) forming? I was very impressed with the results I got using a "hammer on air" strike with a heavy rawhide mallet, and how swiftly it went in mild steel. Produced a pretty smooth curve first go.

I am unfamiliar with this technique.

Mac

Rmmmkay. Need 1 anvil or substitute, flat working face. Need 1 Garland Mfg Weighted Rawhide Hammer/mallet. These have a cast iron collar to hold their rolled-rawhide faces to lend them some serious mass. Usually the armourer would use about a No.2 size as the right weight for most work. They get bigger as the numbers go up, IIRC five sizes in all, and the biggies are expensive. Swat something with one, and it will move -- unmarred.

You can do it from flat sheet, but slightly dishing the piece first to get it rocking a little on a flat surface helps a lot, so you can tip the piece easily for the next phase: hammer-on-air, silversmith like; striking just above where the metal rests upon the anvil. Make passes side to side in whatever way curves the metal as desired. You may be quite surprised how fast and deep 16ga mild forms and curves under this treatment. Talkin' like *instant* spaudler here.

Is this raising or is this not raising? --- I'm not sure we've ever come to a consensus on that. My idea is that the massive rawhide 'whomp' and inelastic collision of the hammer is much less seen by the metal than the sharp, elastic collision of the metal with the anvil face, and the metal is pushed up and a bit inwards, shrinking the periphery of the metal in the raising manner. In effect, the weighted rawhide mallet becomes the ball stake around which the metal forms, and being mooshy-gooshy, it doesn't make for bag-o-marbles texture.

It all suggests a ghetto metalbender might accomplish the same with a homemade, longnosed loaded wooden mallet as long as it's small enough to swing. The rawhide faces are tougher. This kind of pounding promptly rounds off the corners of the rawhide face rolls, making them awfully ragged, but they still work perfectly even so, until you are completely out of rawhide face; replacement faces are available.

[Gordon Thompson]

Something like that, but with different hammer? Picture from "Dupras PhD thesis".

[Konstantin the Red]

Exactly like that, with a heavy gooshy hammer.

[Gordon Thompson]

I took a break from cuirass, I couldnt bring myself to grind it for now, so I did a bevor to practice on it, it took me about 18 hours of planning and work:

https://www.deviantart.com/gordonthomps ... thic-bevor

It could be deeper under the chin, but I think its ok since worked cold.

Upper hem line is a little different than I planned but at least I could bring it to a point - at the cost of only one wrinkle underneath. And two little cracks, invisible from most points of views:). Hem "wave" is also slightly assymmetrical, but it was worse and I fixed it as I could so its not very noticeable.

Critique wanted and appreciated.

Oh, and theres a riveting tip I came up with today - to prevent washer jumping off rivet during first hammer blows - what I find irritating - I fixed it with a duct tape:

[Mac]

I took a break from cuirass, I couldnt bring myself to grind it for now, so I did a bevor to practice on it, it took me about 18 hours of planning and work:

https://www.deviantart.com/gordonthomps ... thic-bevor

Overall, that looks pretty nice! The effect is graceful and ergonomic. This is rare in modern bevors. Kudos!

It could be deeper under the chin, but I think its ok since worked cold.

Almost everybody makes them a bit shallow in the chin. It's tough to get them deep enough, and easy to say "eh.. that'll do". The trick, (especially if working cold) is to get the chin significantly deeper than you think you need before you start working up the crest line.

Upper hem line is a little different than I planned but at least I could bring it to a point - at the cost of only one wrinkle underneath. And two little cracks, invisible from most points of views:). Hem "wave" is also slightly assymmetrical, but it was worse and I fixed it as I could so its not very noticeable.

Hems can be tough, and that one looks pretty respectable. There's nothing to be ashamed of there, and the next one will probable be a bit better.

Critique wanted and appreciated.

There is only one thing that jumps out at me; and that's the lining strips. The leather is about twice as thick as you need, and there is not much of it projecting above the washers to sew through. The width of the leather seams OK, but the washers are obscuring too much of it. Smaller washers, or squarer washers would help a lot. The washers only have to be big enough that the leather will not pull through.

Also... if I may be picky.. You can get by with a lot less rivet length than what I see there. Clipping the rivets so they just barely protrude through the washer has numerous benefits...

-it produces a smoother interior with smaller "dead spots" in the padding.
-it makes it less likely that you will crush and split the leather under the washer (this is a real problem with straps, especially)
-it saves a bit of hammering time on each rivet.
-it saves a small amount of weight. This may seem trivial, but it can add up over the whole armor.
-it makes the rivet easier to remove when the lining strip needs replacement, or when the armor needs a rebuild. (someone may thank you for that in a decade or so )

Oh, and theres a riveting tip I came up with today - to prevent washer jumping off rivet during first hammer blows - what I find irritating - I fixed it with a duct tape:

That's a good one! I usually hold the washer down with tip of my thumb bent enough that the hammer will glance down the nail if I mess up. I'll try to remember the tape for those occasions when I would otherwise want three hands.

Mac

[edited for grammar and syntax]

[Indianer]

The trick, (especially if working cold) is to get the chin significantly deeper than you think you need before you start working up the crest line.

As I read Mac's contribution it makes me believe it refers to you losing depth when hammering the crest from the outside right away.

Does this still hold true if chiseling-in* the crest over the chin from the inside, and only sharpening it a bit from the outside?

*(is that expression even legit? not sure about the grammar, I use this one often though)

Best, Indi

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Your roll on your bevor may not be up to Helmschmid standards, but it's every bit as good as the one on the bevor by Matthes Deutsch in the Wallace Collection! Your symmetry is better, too (just like any modern smith).

[Mac]

The trick, (especially if working cold) is to get the chin significantly deeper than you think you need before you start working up the crest line.

As I read Mac's contribution it makes me believe it refers to you losing depth when hammering the crest from the outside right away.

Does this still hold true if chiseling-in* the crest over the chin from the inside, and only sharpening it a bit from the outside?

*(is that expression even legit? not sure about the grammar, I use this one often though)

Best, Indi

The point I was getting at is this. When you finish the initial raising up of the volume of a bevor, it is likely to too wide on the sides, and will need to be "squished in" a bit. This will have the effect of reducing the curve of the side view. That being the case, it is well to over-raise the thing a bit to compensate for the predictable loss of curvature in profile. If you are working hot, you can more easily take raising passes along the future crest line to increase that curve. That's harder to do cold, and it's best to allow for it ab initio.

As to the idea of chiseling in a crest..... I can not say enough against the practice. A crest is the meeting of two volumes along a center line. It is like the bow of a ship. It should be graceful and beautiful. By contrast, chisel makes a localized line that only conveys the suggestion of a crest; a sort of symbolic or cartoon crest. In addition to that, it thins the metal unnecessarily.

Mac

[Indianer]

Thanks Mac, I´ll have a look at a few images around the forum to retrace this. And I´m sorry I inspired your rage..

[Mac]

Thanks Mac, I´ll have a look at a few images around the forum to retrace this. And I´m sorry I inspired your rage..

I think I chose too strong of an emoticon... sorry

Mac

[Gordon Thompson]

Thank you, guys!

Your responses were exactly what I hoped for - pointing out wrongs and assuring what is right (or right enough:) ).

I have noticed "losing depth by squishing" effect and tried to counter it (I also used wire to bind two sides of piece to prevent widening) , but after some point, I got a feeling that metal refuse to go deeper under hammer so I left it at that stage.

About a crest line - it starts at hem and it blends to nothing on a chin protrusion - I decided not to do crest on a "neck" (and below). I dont know how its holding out historically, but I think it saved a couple of millimetres of depth - it seemed more important to overall look than all the way crest.

Edit: I was wondering if leather is not too thick (its 4mm) , but it was only thickness currently available in my workshop so I just riveted it. If/when I get a thinner leather, I can do a fairly easy swap. And I will make good use of your advices, Mac