Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

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Gordon Thompson
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Gordon Thompson »

Next fruit of my hammer fun. Again, 1.5mm H17 steel.

Image

Image

Image

As you all know, I highly value your opinions and critique, so hit me. I can take it:)

Edit: I just noticed difference in "middle leather rivets" position between left and right pauldron. Have to look close to it to understand what went wrong and avoid that kind of mistakes.

Edit2: Problem lies in slight assymmetry of flutes and about 5mm(!?) width difference between main pauldrons plates. I should have check rivet points from all angles before drilling, instead of distance from inner edge alone.
- "There's three of you, and only one of me. But that doesn't mean there are more of you. It's a mathematical paradox and an exception from the rule.
- What? What does that mean?
- That means *uck off. While you still can".
Gordon Thompson
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Gordon Thompson »

Heres another steel doodles:

Image

What I was trying to do was a little simplified st. Florian besagews.
I was aware its not gonna be easy, and prepared myself for spectacular failure, so here it is - aside of wide irregularities, there are those horrible stake marks... I couldnt find a grinding tool to level all that, Im not sure if its possible at this state.
Basically, I dont have a clue how Mac did those (aside of decades of experience, of course).
- "There's three of you, and only one of me. But that doesn't mean there are more of you. It's a mathematical paradox and an exception from the rule.
- What? What does that mean?
- That means *uck off. While you still can".
Gordon Thompson
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Gordon Thompson »

I have assembled stuff to see interaction between parts. Forming pauldrons was mostly guessing, since I dont have anyone who I could use as a living mannequin and measuring/ fitting on my own back and shoulders is rather inconvenient.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Most of cuirass still waiting for grinding. In my immodest, subjective opinion its not half bad overall, I expected worse outcome. Maybe pauldrons are a bit too large. Any thoughts or glaring mistakes I could/should fix?
- "There's three of you, and only one of me. But that doesn't mean there are more of you. It's a mathematical paradox and an exception from the rule.
- What? What does that mean?
- That means *uck off. While you still can".
Mac
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Mac »

Gordon Thompson wrote:Heres another steel doodles:

Image

What I was trying to do was a little simplified st. Florian besagews.
I was aware its not gonna be easy, and prepared myself for spectacular failure, so here it is - aside of wide irregularities, there are those horrible stake marks... I couldnt find a grinding tool to level all that, Im not sure if its possible at this state.
Basically, I dont have a clue how Mac did those (aside of decades of experience, of course).
You aren't afraid to dive right in! Kudos!

The trick to cleaning a thing like this up is to chose tools and procedures that make very small marks, and work very carefully. Even then, the cleanup is going to be a lot of trouble, and will rely more on handwork than you might hope. I got a certain amount of good out of a reciprocating detail sander, like this one on ebay.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Mac »

Gordon Thompson wrote:I have assembled stuff to see interaction between parts. Forming pauldrons was mostly guessing, since I dont have anyone who I could use as a living mannequin and measuring/ fitting on my own back and shoulders is rather inconvenient.
Backplates are surprisingly difficult to understand, and fitting one to yourself is the about the hardest thing an armorer can attempt. It's one of those things where, if only we did enough of them, and in one style, they would be easy after a bit.... but of course that's not how the modern armorer ends up doing things.

Gordon Thompson wrote: Image
Well! That's shaping right up! I'm pleased to say that you have avoided the modern armor mistakes that make me scowl. I'm impressed and delighted to see what you have done!
Gordon Thompson wrote: Most of cuirass still waiting for grinding. In my immodest, subjective opinion its not half bad overall, I expected worse outcome. Maybe pauldrons are a bit too large. Any thoughts or glaring mistakes I could/should fix?
The pauldrons are a bit big, but not crazy big. What are they based on?

They are a lot more "vertical" in their medial edges that most. We see them this way more in art than in extant examples. The St. Florian shoulders were a bit like this, and I found it difficult to get them to work well. Have you got yours working OK? That's the sine qua non. If they look like your exemplar and they work OK, then they are a success.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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Gordon Thompson
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Gordon Thompson »

Thank you, Mac, your words means a lot! But main credits is yours and other guys here, I was merely a mindless tool - I wouldnt know what to aim for without AA.

I came up with idea to estabilish pattern on besagews with a center punch - "dot lines" masked most of stake marks and its looking much better. Another little cheating.

I got overall idea for arms construction from these:
Image
Pauldron part is indeed based on st.Florian, since it was my first attempt on pauldrons, I wanted to rely on your cobwebs thread with lots of pictures and info.

As for mobility... My modern mind keeps telling me that well made armour should not limit wearer at all, but I know its not true. My problem is, I dont really know for sure how much of a mobility is ok, what motion range should be allowed and which moves are redundant.
Lets say in that gear I can do:
- t-pose
- reach up to take a book from upper shelf
- reach both arms forward and grab my elbows
- reach both arms forward and clap my hands with minimal elbow bending(if Id replaced pauldrons front rivets with leather I could do it with straight arms)
-pick something up from a floor without crouching(barely)

Pauldrons dont catch under breast- and backplate, unless I do moves wider than "generic fight moves", as I imagine them. My experience in fighting exclude armored combat, only unarmed, un-armored martial arts, though.
- "There's three of you, and only one of me. But that doesn't mean there are more of you. It's a mathematical paradox and an exception from the rule.
- What? What does that mean?
- That means *uck off. While you still can".
Gordon Thompson
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Gordon Thompson »

Tassets.

I came up with a two variations of two extant examples hybrid.

Slender:
Image

And chunky:
Image

I like the look of both and I'm in a bind, so what do you guys think? Maybe one of them have more historical or functional value than another? Or maybe I should change something for functional, aestethical or another reasons?
- "There's three of you, and only one of me. But that doesn't mean there are more of you. It's a mathematical paradox and an exception from the rule.
- What? What does that mean?
- That means *uck off. While you still can".
Mac
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Mac »

The tassets you have templated out here seem atypical of Gothic tassets.* I recommend investing more time looking at examples until you come to have a "feel" for them.

These days, a good plan is to start a pinterest page of the thing you want to make. Gather together a few dozen examples to look at and see what falls out as typical. Your images should include as many extant examples as possible. Examples from art are valuable, and sometimes all we have to go by, but they come with a caveat. Artists always interpret the subject, and that sometimes leads them to depict things that won't really work. As such, we always have to "interpret the interpretation" to try to get back to the truth of the thing.

Mac

* If you'd like, I can enumerate and describe the places where I think this is so, but I think it may be better to start with a fresh approach.
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Gordon Thompson »

I combined two examples, I like them because they have features I like - first one have a "fin" reaching back, second one have smooth lines, unlike most "bat wing" edges gothic tassets, which Id like to avoid here, but its not an imperative - I dont want to end up with "fantasy" look either.
I will let this to settle down, follow your advice, get through my folders and internet and decide what to do. Probably I will hammer something else in the meantime :)

By "fresh approach" you mean to ditch the idea I came up with? If so, I will be grateful if you provide examples that would fit better here.
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- "There's three of you, and only one of me. But that doesn't mean there are more of you. It's a mathematical paradox and an exception from the rule.
- What? What does that mean?
- That means *uck off. While you still can".
Mac
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Location: Jeffersonville, PA

Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Mac »

The important thing about the first example is that these tassets are known to have been made in the Met's shop. The late Bob Carrol told me that they started their lives as shovels.

Image

So... we need to toss that example out. Now.. that said, there are related examples from art, and those are probably where the Met's guys got their ideas. I'll post any images I come across.

The second example is probably trustworthy, but the tassets are mounted too low.

Image

As they are, there is a discontinuity of the line that will interact with the saddle. If they were pulled up to give a reasonable overlap with the fauld, that line would be nice and smooth; and that is what you want there.

The other thing we see in these tassets is an overall symmetry or perhaps a "sort of symmetry" around the central (or "sort of central") crest line. This is something we see in most tassets.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Mac »

I'm going to put up some images of what I count as "pretty typical" Gothic tassets as I come across them.

Image Image

Image Image

ImageImage

Image Image

Note, the "sort-o-symmetry" around the central(ish) crest line and the nice smooth curves for the saddle.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Mac »

Now... I realize that I just said to begin with extant examples, but have shown only examples from art. It turns out that extant Gothic tassets are really in short supply. I've just done a quick search, and found most (!?) of the apparently extant ones are dubious. It was a long time ago, and these things were only attached with leather straps. Combine that with the collector's desire to have "full suits", and we get a recipe for old, well patinated fakes.

Here is an example I think we can trust.

Image Image

I'll post more when (if) I find any.

Perhaps James A.G. would like to chime in with examples he thinks are trustworthy.

Mac
Robert MacPherson

The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Gordon Thompson »

Thank you, things got a lot clearer, I will follow those confirmed examples. And that cross-eyed horse with tongue sticking out is pure gold.

Edit: But isnt that suit italian with german factor? What I mean - how much that tassets can be described as gothic, and how much as italian with fluting? On the other hand, my untrained eye see they are similar with those in art you posted, so Im guessing theyre ok as gothic.
- "There's three of you, and only one of me. But that doesn't mean there are more of you. It's a mathematical paradox and an exception from the rule.
- What? What does that mean?
- That means *uck off. While you still can".
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Mac »

Gordon Thompson wrote:Thank you, things got a lot clearer, I will follow those confirmed examples. And that cross-eyed horse with tongue sticking out is pure gold.
That's a fine looking animal. :lol:


Gordon Thompson wrote:Edit: But isnt that suit italian with german factor?
It is. It's an armor made be Italians for the German market. While there are some features that belie its Italian origin, the tassets are pretty much straight up German... at least as far as we can tell.
Gordon Thompson wrote:What I mean - how much that tassets can be described as gothic, and how much as italian with fluting? On the other hand, my untrained eye see they are similar with those in art you posted, so Im guessing theyre ok as gothic.
Like I was saying earlier, we don't really have a lot to go on except art here. The pics I chose range from "really Gothic" to "Gothic-ish" What's more important than the fluting, though, it getting the overall shape to look graceful and believable.

Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Christian Wiedner »

I think I have to agree with Gordon. I wouldnt call any of your examples as what we understand today of an typical late gothic german harness.
Problem with these, many dont seem to have any tassets due to the high reaching leg armour.
But some are depicted in art or effigys. You can argue if the artist is showing the real thing as they are often pretty ugly and missing completly the german gothic ellegance but as it is the only thing we have, I would recommend to go with them. Get as many pictures as you can to get a feeling for what is likely and what not. There also seems to be a tendence to wear the tassets under the faulds...
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Mac »

So... I've been thinking about what makes tassets look right, and made up a little sketch.

The upper left is a typical one-piece tasset of the mid to late 15th C. It is symmetrical and it's center-line is perpendicular to a line drawn across the top. The upper edge rises up to a small point in the middle. The suspension buckles are placed symmetrically and are spaced so as to allow the tasset to hang vertically. If the buckles were farther apart, the tasset would tend hang with its point toward the leg, and it would gap from the fauld in the middle. If the buckles were closer together, the tasset wold hang away from the leg, and would gap from the fauld at the two ends of the tasset.

The upper right shows how the tasset might be extended to reach the center-line of the fauld. The curves formed below this extension outline the saddle. The saddle edges are always hemmed.

The lower left shows the Italianate version of the basic tasset. The rear/side edges have been rounded, but the shape is still more or less within the outline of the basic tasset.

The lower right is an example of one of the weird sorts of tassets that the English used in great profusion in the third quarter of the 15th C. These are set right up next to one another. Sometimes there is one in the center and other times not. The English optimized their armors for fighting on foot. I have no idea what they did with the middle one if they had to ride. :shock:

Image

Mac
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Mac »

Christian Wiedner wrote:I think I have to agree with Gordon. I wouldnt call any of your examples as what we understand today of an typical late gothic german harness.
They are what I came up with in a quick search. Strangely enough, of all my pinterest boards, none of them is about Gothic armor. :shock:

Christian Wiedner wrote:Problem with these, many dont seem to have any tassets due to the high reaching leg armour.
Very true. I think this is why we have so many dubious tassets in collections. It's a lot easier to fake up a pair of tassets to complete a suit than to make a pair of tall Gothic cuisses.
Christian Wiedner wrote: But some are depicted in art or effigys. You can argue if the artist is showing the real thing as they are often pretty ugly and missing completly the german gothic ellegance but as it is the only thing we have, I would recommend to go with them. Get as many pictures as you can to get a feeling for what is likely and what not. There also seems to be a tendence to wear the tassets under the faulds...
I am sure that you are right, and that there are better examples of Gothic tassets to be seen on effigies etc. Perhaps you will post some of your favorites :)

Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Christian Wiedner »

Mac wrote:Perhaps you will post some of your favorites :) Mac
Well there are waaaay more then expected....
Lets start with an original
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Christian Wiedner »

and continue with some non germans with some very german armour
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Christian Wiedner »

some art...
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Christian Wiedner
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Christian Wiedner »

skulptures...
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Christian Wiedner »

simon luchsberger hl. georg.jpg
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note the gap
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

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and some effigys...
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Christian Wiedner »

finally some tassets worn beneath the faulds...
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Mac »

Christian Wiedner wrote:
Mac wrote:Perhaps you will post some of your favorites :) Mac
Well there are waaaay more then expected....
That's an excellent assortment! You have outdone yourself!

Mac
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Mac »

Christian Wiedner wrote:finally some tassets worn beneath the faulds...

I've seen a few of these guys with the tassets under the faulds (Tom B. has a pinterest page of them)..... but not this many.

What do you suppose makes them chose to put the tassets under the fauld ?... and how do you think they are attached?

Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Christian Wiedner »

Mac wrote:That's an excellent assortment! You have outdone yourself! Mac
Thank you!
There are more but it is so timeconsuming to reduce the size to get them uploaded here...


I really have no idea neither why nor how...
To protect the leather?
If I had to do it I guess I would use the bottom of the second final lame to rivet the leather on.
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Gordon Thompson »

Wow, thank you, Christian! I Never saw tassets worn under before.
Christian Wiedner wrote: I really have no idea neither why nor how...
To protect the leather?
If I had to do it I guess I would use the bottom of the second final lame to rivet the leather on.
Also, the point might be to hide things on which other things could catch. I mean buckles and upper edge of tassets.
Mac wrote:
Christian Wiedner wrote:Problem with these, many dont seem to have any tassets due to the high reaching leg armour.
Very true. I think this is why we have so many dubious tassets in collections. It's a lot easier to fake up a pair of tassets to complete a suit than to make a pair of tall Gothic cuisses.
And here comes another toughie. I might be able to do tall cuisses instead of simplier St. Florian-ish ones and Im thinking about taking the shot, but tassets seems to me as a nice add-on to make suit look more "complete". Im sure I saw somewhere a suit with high cuisses AND tassets, but you got me thinking, theyre might be nothing more than collector's add-on. Now Im wondering if I should trust, lets say, Sigismund suit and ditch tassets completely.
Tough one:)
Last edited by Gordon Thompson on Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
- "There's three of you, and only one of me. But that doesn't mean there are more of you. It's a mathematical paradox and an exception from the rule.
- What? What does that mean?
- That means *uck off. While you still can".
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Christian Wiedner »

Hmm, I would say most of the examples I posted have high cuisses AND tassets ;-)

Another thing might be that the dont flop around that much if worn under.

Make the long legs, you can always add the tassets later
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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Mac »

Christian Wiedner wrote:
I really have no idea neither why nor how...
To protect the leather?
If I had to do it I guess I would use the bottom of the second final lame to rivet the leather on.
Whatever the reason, it must not have been a very good one, or more armors would have been made that way.

Attaching the tassets to the penultimate lame would certainly work, but I am worried about weather or not there is room for the buckles. I guess there's only one way to find out the answer to that one. :wink: You could attach them without buckles, but then the tassets are more or less permanent, and that seems inconvenient.

Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Mac »

Christian Wiedner wrote:Hmm, I would say most of the examples I posted have high cuisses AND tassets ;-)

Another thing might be that the dont flop around that much if worn under.

Make the long legs, you can always add the tassets later
This! :wink:

Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Otto von Teich »

This project is coming along VERY nice! And as a bonus I'm learning a lot about tassets as well. I "thought" I knew something about them before..I realize now that what I didnt know...is a lot! And I have much to learn.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
Gordon Thompson
Archive Member
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:04 am

Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Gordon Thompson »

Christian Wiedner wrote:Hmm, I would say most of the examples I posted have high cuisses AND tassets ;-)
Damn... I dont know why I assumed they have shorter kind of cuisses. I feel silly now:)
Christian Wiedner wrote:Make the long legs, you can always add the tassets later
And one problem solved. Thanks!
- "There's three of you, and only one of me. But that doesn't mean there are more of you. It's a mathematical paradox and an exception from the rule.
- What? What does that mean?
- That means *uck off. While you still can".
Gordon Thompson
Archive Member
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:04 am

Re: Workshop temperature vs cold dishing

Post by Gordon Thompson »

Otto von Teich wrote:This project is coming along VERY nice! And as a bonus I'm learning a lot about tassets as well. I "thought" I knew something about them before..I realize now that what I didnt know...is a lot! And I have much to learn.
Thank you! Good to know my dilettante dilemmas can make some value after all :)
- "There's three of you, and only one of me. But that doesn't mean there are more of you. It's a mathematical paradox and an exception from the rule.
- What? What does that mean?
- That means *uck off. While you still can".
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