Something completely different

[Mac]

These pics just came across my Pinterest feed today. I have a memory of having seen a line drawing of this bevor arrangement in a German language armor book in the Cornell U library back in the early '80s, but have not been able remember what book. It's been haunting me, on and off, for decades.



This seems to be a bevor which rotates on an articulated collar. The helmet and breast look like they are from 1500 or so, and the bevor does not fit the helmet well. I wonder if this unusual bevor has come to be associated with a later armor.

The images come from VK, which is usually like saying "no further information is available", but in this case, we find they are from an album of images from the KHM in Vienna. If that's the case, it explains why I thought I remember it from a German language source. It also brings up the idea that I must have walked right past it two years ago and not seen it.

Does anyone have pics of info on this object? If the bevor is a legitimate "thing" it may go a long way toward explaining why there are so many articulated collars in 15th C art. A bevor that rotated on such a collar might be easily removable.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

St. George in the Met features something looking a lot like a rotational collar bevor.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/467786

[Mac]

St. George in the Met features something looking a lot like a rotational collar bevor.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/467786

That's the thing. We have lots of iconographic examples of articulated gorgets without bevors and lots of examples of bevors that look like they are attached to articulated gorgets, but as far as I know this one in Vienna is our only extant example.

There are some examples of bevors on things that look like atriculated gorgets on Tom B's page of bevors with integral backs.

Here are a couple of fine examples, where the guy even seems to be turning his head. Now... we all know that that's exactly the sort of thing that artists take their famous license with, but perhaps they really mean it. It's hard to know.







So. Is this really a thing? I'd like to believe it, but I think we need to know more about the one in Vienna. If it's everything it seems to be, then I'm willing to ascribe a lot of what we see in art as rotating/removable bevors. If not, we are still left with a puzzle.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

If only a group of arnourers and people with a lot of knowledge about these things could make a group trip to Vienna and look at these things on site...

[Mac]

If only a group of arnourers and people with a lot of knowledge about these things could make a group trip to Vienna and look at these things on site...

It also brings up the idea that I must have walked right past it two years ago and not seen it.

Oh... the cruel taunting!

Mac

[Mac]

So... having seen the image of the bevor with the helmet, I got to thinking that my search image might be off, so I checked to see if the line drawing I remembered was in Boeheim's Handbuch.

The results were mixed. The thing I remember does not seem to be in there, but Herr Doktor B. does show the helmet and the bevor together.... but without the collar.



Can someone here read German well enough to tell what he has to say? There is also a bit of text about this figure on page 48.

Thanks,
Mac

[Kristoffer]

I believe it actually says that the lost collar is supposed to connect and rotate.. someone with better german can give the whole translation properly..

[Sean M]

Fig. 40: Burgonet ("Assault bonnet") for a half harness of Franz von Castelalto (died 1550). The formerly ?cut down? bevor is designed to be independently fastened to the gorget and runs all around it. Atop it is set the burgonet. Work about 1525.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

I, too, have been wondering about this thing for many years, but despite staring at it for quite awhile the last time I was there, I could make no headway. It needs hands-on. The thing that irks me the most is that I had every intention of taking, and could have sworn I did, a photo of the museum tag. I could put my images on Flickr, but they are not as good as the ones Mac already posted. That line that lines up with the bottom of the falling lame is intriguing.

DSC_0871shelmet.JPG (91.64 KiB) Viewed 9559 times

[Mac]

I believe it actually says that the lost collar is supposed to connect and rotate.. someone with better german can give the whole translation properly..

Fig. 40: Burgonet ("Assault bonnet") for a half harness of Franz von Castelalto (died 1550). The formerly ?cut down? bevor is designed to be independently fastened to the gorget and runs all around it. Atop it is set the burgonet. Work about 1525.

Google translate gives me "balaclava" for Sturmhaube.

.. but, yea. That's the sort of thing I'm getting out of it as well.. that is to say Google and I.

Google is a strange thing. When I type in the whole thing, it seems to translate abschlächtige as "neglected", but when I plug in that word alone, it does not recognize it.

Thanks guys!
Mac

[Kristoffer]

Der abschlächtige gives me "the scary"... think we need a proper German fellow...

[Mac]

I, too, have been wondering about this thing for many years, but despite staring at it for quite awhile the last time I was there, I could make no headway. It needs hands-on. The thing that irks me the most is that I had every intention of taking, and could have sworn I did, a photo of the museum tag. I could put my images on Flickr, but they are not as good as the ones Mac already posted.

A few weeks ago, did some napkin sketches of what the cross section of the rim and collar must be for a thing like this to work. The important thing is that there must be some sort of internal plate or plates to keep it from just falling off. That is to say it must be captured on the rim of the gorget. As long as the bevor takes up less than 1/2 of the rim, it can be installed or removed easily enough as long as the collar is not being worn.

If you wanted to be able to put it on and take it off without taking of the collar, the internal mechanism might consist of three bars or fences, each of which can be rotated out of the way by turning their mountings from the outside. This seems fussy and inconvenient, so there's probably another mechanism that I haven't thought of.

Mac

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Perhaps there is an internal piece in the rear of the helmet that makes it work somewhat like the A 79 foot-combat helm, and the bevor, once the falling buffe is dropped, can swing up enough to put the thing on...

[Mac]

Perhaps there is an internal piece in the rear of the helmet that makes it work somewhat like the A 79 foot-combat helm, and the bevor, once the falling buffe is dropped, can swing up enough to put the thing on...

Oh, yea yea! I'm clearly overthinking this. If the bevor had just enough of a "back plate" to wrap around the whole gorget it would work nicely and be pretty convenient to use. It wouldn't have to be more than a strip with a channel. I'm thinking of a thing with a hinge on one end and a fastener on the other. On the other hand it could be a larger plate to supplement the general lack of protection that sallets offer the back of the neck when they are tipped down.

So.. there's one of those turn of the 15/16 C bellows visored sallets with a built in bevor that clamps around the collar. Is that ringing a bell? Where is that thing? Is there a pic in Armature Lombarde? I'll go check.

Mac

[Johann ColdIron]

If only a group of arnourers and people with a lot of knowledge about these things could make a group trip to Vienna and look at these things on site...

SNORT!

[Johann ColdIron]

Perhaps there is an internal piece in the rear of the helmet that makes it work somewhat like the A 79 foot-combat helm, and the bevor, once the falling buffe is dropped, can swing up enough to put the thing on...

Oh, yea yea! I'm clearly overthinking this. If the bevor had just enough of a "back plate" to wrap around the whole gorget it would work nicely and be pretty convenient to use. It wouldn't have to be more than a strip with a channel. On the other hand it could be a larger plate to supplement the general lack of protection that sallets offer the back of the neck when they are tipped down.

Mac

Could there be some sort of circular internal collar to the bevor that wraps completely around and supports the top ring of the gorget? The rivet locations on the flanks of the bevor chin interest me and make me question their utility.

[Kristoffer]

Just posting this fellow here because it could help spark ideas.

https://www.philamuseum.org/collections ... 228931%7C1

[Mac]

....snip....So.. there's one of those turn of the 15/16 C bellows visored sallets with a built in bevor that clamps around the collar. Is that ringing a bell? Where is that thing? Is there a pic in Armature Lombarde? I'll go check.

Mac

OK, I found it in L' Arte dell Armatura in Italia. It's in Florence (the Stibbert?) BA c 1635



It doesn't lock over a collar, but it does have a nifty built-in bevor.

Mac

[Mac]

Perhaps there is an internal piece in the rear of the helmet that makes it work somewhat like the A 79 foot-combat helm, and the bevor, once the falling buffe is dropped, can swing up enough to put the thing on...

Oh, yea yea! I'm clearly overthinking this. If the bevor had just enough of a "back plate" to wrap around the whole gorget it would work nicely and be pretty convenient to use. It wouldn't have to be more than a strip with a channel. On the other hand it could be a larger plate to supplement the general lack of protection that sallets offer the back of the neck when they are tipped down.

Mac

Could there be some sort of circular internal collar to the bevor that wraps completely around and supports the top ring of the gorget? The rivet locations on the flanks of the bevor chin interest me and make me question their utility.

I was thinking of an external ring, but we might be talking about the same thing. I'll make up a couple of sketches and post them in a bit. Do you want to do the same?

Mac

[Mac]

Just posting this fellow here because it could help spark ideas.

https://www.philamuseum.org/collections ... 228931%7C1

I was just thinking about that bevor. It's a puzzle in its own right. I've handled it, and I'm as sure as I can be that it's supposed to lock onto a helmet and be a sort of removable bevor that moves with the helmet. The problem is making sense of the fastenings. There must be some clever way that this thing attaches, but what that is has eluded me for years.

Mac

[Mac]

Perhaps there is an internal piece in the rear of the helmet that makes it work somewhat like the A 79 foot-combat helm, and the bevor, once the falling buffe is dropped, can swing up enough to put the thing on...

Oh, yea yea! I'm clearly overthinking this. If the bevor had just enough of a "back plate" to wrap around the whole gorget it would work nicely and be pretty convenient to use. It wouldn't have to be more than a strip with a channel. On the other hand it could be a larger plate to supplement the general lack of protection that sallets offer the back of the neck when they are tipped down.

Mac

Could there be some sort of circular internal collar to the bevor that wraps completely around and supports the top ring of the gorget? The rivet locations on the flanks of the bevor chin interest me and make me question their utility.

I was thinking of an external ring, but we might be talking about the same thing. I'll make up a couple of sketches and post them in a bit. Do you want to do the same?

Mac

This is a tall bevor! I'm not sure I have the proportions right. It might be even taller. In any case it certainly covers the nose, and that's a bit unusual outside of reenactment. That's probably why we don't see lining rivets on the falling plate. The lining probably stops at the upper edge of the main plate, where we can not see the rivets.

What I sketched seems to me to be the minimum size for a back strap to encircle the collar rim. It's a bit taller than I thought it would be because it needs to include a hinge. The other side would have a fastener in the corresponding location. That might be a pin and hook or a turning pin. It would certainly be mechanical, rather than a strap and buckle.



If it did originally go with the helmet it's displayed with (which I sort of doubt) , this shape of back strap will do just fine. If it were originally made for a sallet or a kettle hat, it would be better to have the back strap fill in and cover more of the back of the head.

Mac

[Rene K.]

Several years ago i made such a combination of bevor and gorget, like it is on the golden st. georg in Nuremberg.
It worked ok, but i had some problems making it not falling down in the articulation of the gorget. The backside wrap around the gorget had to be relativ high, but if it is just a straight band, it touches the neck and head at a very critical point which could give bad injurys i thought. I made it like the lower part of a rotating armet, following the lower head/neck, and this worked good enough. The rotation was ok, but not that nice as an rotating helmet.



It's funny that this in discussion now, cause i wanted to try this feature again when my own suit it ready to wear and i have the time to make another helmet

[Kristoffer]

This is a translation I got from my XVI Century European Armour group on Facebook.

Fig 40. Burgonet to a half harness of Franz von castelato (died1550).
The bevor can be folded down and is to be applied by itself to the harness collar and ancloses the same (means it's self-supporting without the helmet on top of it, but and it's a big but it can mean "one can apply it to the harness collar by himself" too since it's is really old-timey talk. I think first option makes more sense though). The helmet is set on top of it (means it goes over the bevor).

Fig 41
Closed german burgonet with detachable visor. The upper most segment is illustrated in a downward position (means the segment can be pushed up all the way to the brim, so the helmet is fully closed). It is part of an armor of emporer ferdinand I, named "with rose petals" 1560.
Attributed work of Hans Rosenberger, Dresden.

[Tom B.]

Here are some images from our Vienna trip, most maybe all, were taken by Wade.

Click on images to load full sized versions:















Uncropped images:

[Mac]

Thank you, Tom!

I wish we could see what's going on under that helmet.....

Mac

[Johann ColdIron]

Could there be some sort of circular internal collar to the bevor that wraps completely around and supports the top ring of the gorget? The rivet locations on the flanks of the bevor chin interest me and make me question their utility.

I was thinking of an external ring, but we might be talking about the same thing. I'll make up a couple of sketches and post them in a bit. Do you want to do the same?

Mac

Didn't see this till today. Looking at the new pics from Tom I think your drawing is headed in the correct direction. The rivets I was wondering about appear to be what is holding the external ring plate on to the base of the bevor. I couldn't see the end of the bevor plate in the original pic.

There is a faint glint of metal back behind the bevor. Wish we could get someone to pop that lid off for a second or two for photos.

[Mac]

Several years ago i made such a combination of bevor and gorget, like it is on the golden st. georg in Nuremberg.

You mean this guy? Yes?



I think you are right to interpret this as a bevor that rotates on a gorget. If this is truly a pic of the original armor, then it looks like the bevor was removable.

It worked ok, but i had some problems making it not falling down in the articulation of the gorget.

I was wondering if the weight of the bevor would make the collar collapse in front. Perhaps a strap around the back of the head might help.

The backside wrap around the gorget had to be relativ high, but if it is just a straight band, it touches the neck and head at a very critical point which could give bad injurys i thought. I made it like the lower part of a rotating armet, following the lower head/neck, and this worked good enough. The rotation was ok, but not that nice as an rotating helmet.

I like that change! I was going to sketch something similar to that as a second drawing, but I just got lazy and didn't.

It's funny that this in discussion now, cause i wanted to try this feature again when my own suit it ready to wear and i have the time to make another helmet

Nice looking helmet! Does the bevor open in the middle of the chin, or on the right side?

Mac

[Tom B.]

St. George in the Met features something looking a lot like a rotational collar bevor.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/467786

[Rene K.]

@mac: The bevor-piece of my helmet opens on the side, but it was a bad idea to try this with that kind of rotating ring. It would better work with a internal brim locking in a surounding groove .
The rotating bevor, i made after the golden man i made ca. 15 years ago, when i noticed the detail on the figure, genuine or not . And yes, the gorget wanted to collapse through the weight.

i think a strap would not be a good feature. I allways thought about a kind of soft cap attachet to the bevor, but who knows

[Mac]

St. George in the Met features something looking a lot like a rotational collar bevor.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/467786

This is a great shot, and the bevor clearly has a back, but I don't think this one rotates. The front and back neck lines are not collinear. To rotate, they would have to lie on a plane.

When I zoom in on the relevant images in the Met, it looks like there is a hinge on each side of the bib plate. This fits in well with that I think I see in this back view. There seems to be a strap and buckle on the plates that cover the back of the neck I think this bevor side plates which close in the back.

Mac

[Mac]

It would better work with a internal brim locking in a surounding groove .

Can I get you to make a sketch of that? When I think about it, I keep ending up with something where you would have to open up the top of the collar to put it on or take it off. That sounds like trouble, but maybe it's OK.

The rotating bevor, i made after the golden man i made ca. 15 years ago, when i noticed the detail on the figure, genuine or not . And yes, the gorget wanted to collapse through the weight.

Perhaps the collar needs to have really stiff leathers... or perhaps an internal padding helps to keep it supported.

i think a strap would not be a good feature. I allways thought about a kind of soft cap attachet to the bevor, but who knows

I think I see what you mean. A strap will keep it back against the chin, but it will still slump down.

We sometimes see the chinstrap of the helmet fastened over the outside of the bevor. That would probably work to hold the up, but we don't see this done as often as we would expect.

Mac

[Rene K.]

No problem, Tomorrow in can make you a scetch

[Sky]

Just posting this fellow here because it could help spark ideas.

https://www.philamuseum.org/collections ... 228931%7C1

I was just thinking about that bevor. It's a puzzle in its own right. I've handled it, and I'm as sure as I can be that it's supposed to lock onto a helmet and be a sort of removable bevor that moves with the helmet. The problem is making sense of the fastenings. There must be some clever way that this thing attaches, but what that is has eluded me for years.

Mac

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but the mechanics on this seem pretty straightforward. Slide the bolt in the right side of the helmet, compress the springs against the internal sides, and pop the square peg into its female. Once the nut is tightened all the way down, there's not enough play for the peg side to fall open, and if it does, you can just pop it back into the hole.

Granted, I've never handled the thing, so my idea is just that.

[Mac]

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but the mechanics on this seem pretty straightforward. Slide the bolt in the right side of the helmet, compress the springs against the internal sides, and pop the square peg into its female. Once the nut is tightened all the way down, there's not enough play for the peg side to fall open, and if it does, you can just pop it back into the hole.

Granted, I've never handled the thing, so my idea is just that.

Perhaps I'm missing something, and perhaps it's an obvious thing; but somehow I'm still not getting it.

What shape is the female part of the helmet into which the square peg fits? What retains it there?

I like the part where you want to start by putting in the threaded part. That seems good. Most of my ideas have presumed that the threaded part somehow goes in last.

Perhaps you could draw us a sketch to illustrate what you mean?

Mac

[RWWT]

It's hard to tell from the photo but, to me, the square part looks like it would need a hole and slot or similar "keyed" hole to work and not be very difficult to remove under skylernichol's description. So, threaded part goes in first, square into a keyed hole second, nut tightens things up and put tension on the springs to hold everything in place?