Something completely different

[Mac]

OK.. You guys have got me thinking bout this, and I'm making sketches.

Already, there is a surprise. I'll post about it as soon as I can.

Mac

[Mac]

Here is what I have begun with. My intention was to see whether or not the bevor could be introduced into a helmet by first putting the threaded stem through a hole, and then rotating the bevor forward about 90° to allow the rectangular pad to enter a corrisponding hole in the other side of the helmet. Then the bevor would be rotated back about 45° and the whole thing put on the head. Once the helmet was settled, the bevor would swing down until the neck flare sat on the breastplate. The weight of the bevor would be born by the support bars, and the bevor would move with the sallet.

That all seems plausable, but here is where I ran into trouble.

The first sketch shows a side view superimposed on a standard head. It fits OK, and I am pretty comfortable with it. The second sketch shows how the head and bevor interact with a normally proportioned sallet. The problem is that the support bars of the bevor are significantly lower than the edge of the sallet.



If I have the scale of the bevor correct, this means that the helmet that went with it was not a typical sallet. It must either have had special extensions to reach the bevor supports, or it was a much deaper helmet. We also have the issue that the bevor is interacting badly with the inside of the visor. It sticks too far forward, and it is taller than is necessary for a normal helmet. Perhaps what we need here is some sort of kettle hat.

I'm going to continue to think about this.

Mac

[Mac]

Just for the sake of exploring the idea of proportion, I have made this sketch. The first head shows the size I think the bevor is, and the second is how big it might possibly be... vis a via a standard head. I've tried to keep the interface with the throat and breastplate as the constant, while altering the size overall.

Now... I've handled the real one, and I don't think it's huge. On the other hand, it could have been made for someone small. That seems unlikely, but I thought I'd put it out there.



Mac

[RWWT]

This doesn’t address the proportion issue that you’ve illustrated, Mac, but do you think the bevor would necessarily have to rotate to be put in place? I’m looking at the bevels on the side of the square peg and it’s seems to suggest to me that it might slide into place over a plate until the spring tension pops it through a hole.

I’ve got nothing on the proportion issue.

[Mac]

.... but do you think the bevor would necessarily have to rotate to be put in place?

Perhaps not, but rotating into place makes a sort of mechanical sense to me. Since the rectangular pad could not be removed without rotating the bevor, and the bevor can't rotate that far with the head inside, it would be secure until or unless the helmet were removed.

Also, if we presume that the bevor is free to rotate on those mounting stems (limited only by head within) the system can accommodate a certain amount of adjustment of the angles or head and helmet.

Now, the part I don't like about this idea is that the pivot points are not really in the right place to be able to tip a helmet back while keeping the bevor in the same location. When you shove a sallet back on the head, it rotates around a point near the temples ....more or less. By contrast, this bevor would only let the helmet rotate around a point near the angle of the jaw.

I’m looking at the bevels on the side of the square peg and it’s seems to suggest to me that it might slide into place over a plate until the spring tension pops it through a hole.

Somehow, that's not forming an image in my head. Can you sketch it out?

Mac

[Kristoffer]

What about the pegs on each side of the bevor below the thingies?

[Mac]

What about the pegs on each side of the bevor below the thingies?

By "pegs" do you mean the structure in the red circle?



Those are the rivets that hold the "thingies" to the main plate.

Mac

[RWWT]

You may regret asking for a sketch from me, Mac. I went to the Stevie Wonder School of Drawing and flunked out. Still, happy to give it a shot.

Full disclosure, while thinking through how I might put what was in my head into a sketch, my first step was a face palm and saying to myself, "Duh. Of course there is rotation". For some reason, when you said rotation, my brain processed something entirely different. Or perhaps we are talking about something different.

Anyhow, here's a quick stab at what I'm thinking. Hope it's of some value. Sorry it's messy even beyond my own low expectations of my drawing. It's been an tiring but exciting day of making leg casts for my first time. (Yay! Looks to be successful so far).

[Kristoffer]

Those are the rivets that hold the "thingies" to the main plate.

Mac

Are they an integrated part of the thingies and are they held in place by something that looks like a lock washer and not peened? They feel rather excessive? They also kinda look like something that has a function beyond just being a rivet. Like they would fit in a slot or something.

[Mac]

Those are the rivets that hold the "thingies" to the main plate.

Mac

Are they an integrated part of the thingies and are they held in place by something that looks like a lock washer and not peened? They feel rather excessive? They also kinda look like something that has a function beyond just being a rivet. Like they would fit in a slot or something.

The place where the "thingies" is attached to the inside of the bevor is covered by the lining, and we can't really see what's happening.



I believe, though, that they are just big rivets which have been peened up sort of brutally to keep the "thingies" from moving.

While I like the word "thingies", I think I will start calling them "arms" or "mounting arms".

Mac

[Mac]

You may regret asking for a sketch from me, Mac. I went to the Stevie Wonder School of Drawing and flunked out. Still, happy to give it a shot.

Full disclosure, while thinking through how I might put what was in my head into a sketch, my first step was a face palm and saying to myself, "Duh. Of course there is rotation". For some reason, when you said rotation, my brain processed something entirely different. Or perhaps we are talking about something different.

Anyhow, here's a quick stab at what I'm thinking. Hope it's of some value. Sorry it's messy even beyond my own low expectations of my drawing. It's been an tiring but exciting day of making leg casts for my first time. (Yay! Looks to be successful so far).

Thank you for taking the time to make up a sketch! Now, I see where you are coming from.

There are two things I'd like to point out....

--The first is that, as drawn, there is nothing but friction and luck to keep the square pad from being dislodged from its hole in the helmet. A sharp blow at the wrong moment may leave the right side of the bevor hanging.
--The second, is that the square pad on the support arm of the Philly bevor is not so much square as rectangular. I think that's important, and it can be used to our advantage. (see following post)

Mac

[Rene K.]

Could it be that the mounting arms are bent over much more then they have been ? At last the angles are not symetrical.
In this downward position the mounting is not very strong and i'm shure the rectangular side would be worn out very fast. Also the mounting point is at a level, that favors the rotation of the bevor forward or in the face of the wearer.

I thought about a kattle hat mounting. With a slot on the one side of the brim and a simple round hole for the screw.
Hoocking in the rectangular knob, and swing up the bevor till the screw goes in the hole.
Just a possibility.

[Mac]

Here is a sketch I made this morning to show the sort of thing that I think might work with the Philly bevor.

First of all, as we have seen in my post of 2/16 (above) a normally proportioned sallet does not extend deep enough to provide a place for this bevor to attach. Therefore we have to look further afield for a suitable helmet.

For the sake of argument, I am going to show how the bevor might attach to a deep kettle hat like the one from Rhodes in the RA IV.4 I have taken the liberty of imagining a rectangular hole in the cheek of the helmet on one side, and a corresponding round one (not seen in my sketch) on the other.




--The upper left sketch shows the helmet as it would sit on a standard head profile.

--The upper center shows the bevor being introduced to the helmet. The threaded stem on the right support arm is passed through the round hole on the far side, and the rectangular pad on the left arm is passed through the corresponding hole on the side we can see. To do this, the bevor most be oriented as shown.

--The upper right sketch shows the bevor having been rotated forward, and the fall-plate dropped. This will leave enough room to introduce the head into the helmet.

--The lower left shows the helmet and bevor over the head profile, but with the fall-plate still in the lowered position. The bevor has rotated under the effect of gravity until its lower edge sits on the breastplate.

--The sketch in the lower center shows the helmet and bevor ready for use, with the fall plate in the up position.

An important thing in this conjectural arrangement is that the bevor can not be dislodged or removed as long as the helmet is still on the head. To be removed, the bevor must be rotated until the rectangular pad lined up with the orientation of the rectangular hole.

Mac

[RWWT]

There are two things I'd like to point out....

--The first is that, as drawn, there is nothing but friction and luck to keep the square pad from being dislodged from its hole in the helmet. A sharp blow at the wrong moment may leave the right side of the bevor hanging.
--The second, is that the square pad on the support arm of the Philly bevor is not so much square as rectangular. I think that's important, and it can be used to our advantage. (see following post)

Mac

Right there with you on all counts. Back in the 90s I’d purchased a wallet for SCA use with a lot of “modern engineering”. Everyone had a lot of fun trying to hit the “sweet spot” that would pop everything open at practice. I bring this up because this helmet, while resembling nothing I’ve seen in period, would probably have worked quite well with this bevor set up as it had internal plates where everything attached rather than attaching to the outer edges of the helmet. Again, I’ve never seen anything “real” remotely like this but I haven’t done a lot of research into armor in this period either.

Slight counterpoint on the “friction and luck” part. If Step 4 is threading tightening down on the threaded post, my assumption would be that the “thingies” would compress, increasing the tension quite a bit. Still, a good blow could dislodge things, unless the rectangular post dropped into a slot.

Yeah, I’m flailing around on this and none of it works in light of the other challenges you’ve illustrated. Just tossing some elements out in the hope that it might give folks with more experience with bevors and related helmets something to chew on.

[Mac]

Could it be that the mounting arms are bent over much more then they have been ? At last the angles are not symetrical.

My impression is that the one on the right (with the threaded stalk) is bent, but that the left one is more or less OK. In reality, of course, it's impossible to be sure.

In this downward position the mounting is not very strong and i'm shure the rectangular side would be worn out very fast.

I'm a bit worried about wear as well.

Also the mounting point is at a level, that favors the rotation of the bevor forward or in the face of the wearer.

Yes. I think that if we support the bevor from the lower ends of the support arms, it will naturally tilt down in front until the neck sits against the breastplate.

I thought about a kattle hat mounting. With a slot on the one side of the brim and a simple round hole for the screw.
Hoocking in the rectangular knob, and swing up the bevor till the screw goes in the hole.
Just a possibility.

I' pleased to see that you are ahead of me! That gives me some confidence that I might be right.

Mac

[bartholomew]

Hey Mac, would you consider making a beaver and kettle as a commission?

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Getting back to this beast, it is indeed very much like the A 79 foot-combat helm in that the track for the locking collar continues around the back under the tail. I thought that the piece(s) in question might have worked the same way, but if the quotation is accurate, no soap.

DSC04722.JPG (80.58 KiB) Viewed 3694 times

[Mac]

Getting back to this beast, it is indeed very much like the A 79 foot-combat helm in that the track for the locking collar continues around the back under the tail. I thought that the piece(s) in question might have worked the same way, but if the quotation is accurate, no soap.

DSC04722.JPG

I guess I spoke without really looking when I said that it didn't lock down over a collar. That turned-in edge continues all the way around.

This looks like a helmet that would do well in some of the modern combat sports. Why don't we see more of them? Is it just the it's obscure?

You've lost me there with the "no soap"

Mac

[Mac]

So... here's a thought. What if this helmet is not so much a radical departure, as it is a working life modification? What if it's really just the union of a typical bellows visored sallet and a bog standard rotating bevor?

Mac

[Mac]

So... here's a thought. What if this helmet is not so much a radical departure, as it is a working life modification? What if it's really just the union of a typical bellows visored sallet and a bog standard rotating bevor?

Mac

OK. Upon reflection, it can't have been a "bog standard rotating bevor". If there ever were such a thing, it would not have opened up the front. I suppose something that opened on the side or in the back would have been the typical thing.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

OK. Upon reflection, it can't have been a "bog standard rotating bevor". If there ever were such a thing, it would not have opened up the front. I suppose something that opened on the side or in the back would have been the typical thing.

Well, the evolution comes from a front covering bevor but leads to the armet locking over a rotating collar. There could be a step in between there with technological overlap..

[Scott Martin]

Well, the evolution comes from a front covering bevor but leads to the armet locking over a rotating collar. There could be a step in between there with technological overlap..

If you look at dates where the armet was in use, it's actually before this sort of "close sallet" (which you could consider a precursor to the close helm) or Burgonet. The armet with locking collar was fairly well established in the mid-15th century (for example the Avant harness has a very low ring on the breastplate, which I assume was engaged by the Armet which was originally part of the harness). The classic forms of burgonet are generally mid-16th century and later.

In my mind the sallet evolved into the close helm (through the "close sallet" form that lasted for a few years - courtesy of our friends Sigusmund and Maximillian thanks to Tom B for making me aware of these helmets!) while the armet evolved into the burgonet. The (ubiquitous) close helm could really be seen as the evolution of *both* the armet and the sallet turning into the generic heavy cavalry helmet, but the armet was definitely in use well before you see burgonets.

Scott

[Sean M]

With my 1360s eyes, I think the stop rid on the collar of the Avant Armour's breast is just a stop rib. The most plausible pot for that one just has the usual wrapper doesn't it? I thought that the elmetti (what collectors call armets and close helms) which lock onto the gorget come in after the jaw-high articulated collar of plate appears around 1500.

[Kristoffer]

The thing with armour evolution is that it is not a linear transition that happen in a straight line from A to B.
I also like to separate technical evolution from stylistic changes..

Many technical details we think of as 16th century inventions often can be found in effigies from as early as the 14th century, they just didn't become a popular, mainstream thing until a lot later.

When going from a very established concept like the bevor and sallet to the gorget and armet with a locking rotational cuff, there is usually a number of ideas being tested before one technical function becomes the popular thing that all the cool kids have to have. I think of the "rotating bevor" a bit like the Betamax or Laserdisc. It just didn't catch on and is now lost to history.

[Mac]

This just rolled across my Pinterest feed today.



It's sort of slips under the radar when the visor is closed.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

There seem to be some of these fellows surviving.. they seem to pop up here and there..

[Mac]

There seem to be some of these fellows surviving.. they seem to pop up here and there..

It's the same one as in the B/W pics above. I wish there were more of them. We should keep our eyes open.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

Oh, right! It has a lot prettier finish then I have seen it with before.. it tricked me.

[Tom B.]

Muzeo Nazionale del Bargello in Florence. Inventory number - s1635

[Tom B.]

One of the reasons it is easy to miss what is going on with the bevor is that the helmet is display is low, maybe below waist height.



DSC_0359 by Andrea Carloni

[Mac]

I think this St. Maurice may well have a rotating bevor. The neck line seems to be all on a plane, which is one of the requisites.



Has anyone got any better images?

Mac

[Rene K.]

This moment i mentioned this picture while scrolling through my archive. It let us see more of the rotating bevor and the hinge of the neck plate.

[Sky]

So I was at Estrella for a week and this thread got away from me. I definitely wasn't expecting it to not really work with a traditional Sallet form, but I think we can say that's the case. While it might exist with a bellows face, it doesn't seem super likely to me, since it's a little higher profile (vertically, not status-wise) than most I've seen, as most of the face is covered by the longer visor.

I think the rectangular form of the mounting arm peg is definitely important, and I think Mac's rotational peg lineup is either spot on or very close. Rotational closures were becoming pretty common in the HRE at this point, so the idea would have been very plausible.

My main concern (and this is partially do to my mental concept bias, for sure) is that the shank (Tang? Idk) of the mounting peg is also rectangular, and appears to be wider than the height of the peg, which would make it nearly impossible to rotate unless the peg hole is significantly larger (definitely happens) than the peg itself.

This leaves us with two options that make sense to me: big hole (not uncommon) or a tapered hole, which prevents the bevor from flopping around and solves the rotation issue, but puts a lot of strain on the peg arm.

The idea is thus: the tapered peg slots into, but not through, a smaller tapered hole, either aligning flush, or barely beyond the wall of the helmet. The screw is given a few solid cranks to keep everything under tension and the peg is solidly wedged into the hole, with little chance of popping out unless the bolt side is loosened. This has the advantage of being able to be locked on our removed while the helmet is worn, but being (theoretically) very secure while in use, and not requiring an extra large hole for rotation.

Do I think that's honestly how it was done? Probably not. It seems to rely on the bolt being under a LOT of tension and not coming loose much at all, which seems pretty unrealistic to me. In addition, the taper of the bolt is pretty steep, and I would expect a shallower angle if the taper was part of the closure mechanism. I just wanted to address a potential option that if we were to make a functional reproduction, we would need to consider, especially because it's something that could be tried first, and if it didn't work, could be easily changed to the more plausible solution by just filing the hole larger.

[Mac]

This moment i mentioned this picture while scrolling through my archive. It let us see more of the rotating bevor and the hinge of the neck plate.

Oh! That's exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to see!

You are a gem, Rene!

Mac

[Mac]

The idea is thus: the tapered peg slots into, but not through, a smaller tapered hole, either aligning flush, or barely beyond the wall of the helmet. The screw is given a few solid cranks to keep everything under tension and the peg is solidly wedged into the hole, with little chance of popping out unless the bolt side is loosened. This has the advantage of being able to be locked on our removed while the helmet is worn, but being (theoretically) very secure while in use, and not requiring an extra large hole for rotation.
.

I'm having trouble thinking this through. Can you make up a little sketch?

Thanks!
Mac