Something completely different

[Sky]

I got out of bed to look for a pencil, so you better appreciate this I can't upload the picture (something I've never tried) so I added it to a pin board instead.

https://pin.it/2TV6B8%2F

[Mac]

I got out of bed to look for a pencil, so you better appreciate this I can't upload the picture (something I've never tried) so I added it to a pin board instead.

https://pin.it/2TV6B8%2F

All the way out of bed!

Unfortunately, this heroic sacrifice is rendered invisible by the link not working.

If you have it as a Pinterest pin, try this....
--mouse over the image
--right click to open a menu
--left click on "same image location"
--go back to the AA post composing screen
--put the cursor where you want the image
--left click on the button marked Img
--hit Ctrl+v to paste the location into the Img brackets

That usually works.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Any chance our old friend here is an attempt to show a turner?

[Tom B.]

A couple of other suspects from art.
Both are by the same artist BAEGERT, Derick German painter (b. ca. 1440, Wesel?, d. ca. 1515, Wesel?)

[Tom B.]

We know that this statue on the former house of the armorer Hans Grunewald in Nurnberg, is a 19th C copy of a lost original.
So we may not be able to trust some details.



Here is an image of what seems to be the original (bevor missing)


We can't know if the sallet & bevor were present when the copy was made or if they were just guessed at.
I have long suspected that these turning bevors had to exist, we see so many depictions of articulated gorgets with late gothic harnesses.

Take a look through Mac Pinterest Album -Articulated Gorgets in the 15thC and you will see several guys who would be good candidates for a turning bevor.

[Tom B.]

another

[Tom B.]

I think this St. Maurice may well have a rotating bevor. The neck line seems to be all on a plane, which is one of the requisites.



Has anyone got any better images?

Mac

From this Twitter Post

[Mac]

Thank you, Tom!

We seem to be amassing a pretty good body of evidence. I think we now have more examples of rotating bevors than we have of segmented breastplates.


Mac

[Sky]

I think the link should work now. I had the board set up as secret by accident :/

If not, I will attempt again.

Now all of you make me want to make an articulated pivoting bevor. Isn't making my life any easier, you know?

[Mac]

I think the link should work now. I had the board set up as secret by accident :/

If not, I will attempt again.

OK. I see what you're doing now. I didn't understand the part where the rectangular pad doesn't to all the way through. (I like that little blow up section detail... that sort of thing really speaks to me.) Neither did I get the part where (wing?) nut is on the inside, on the right.

Sometimes we are blinded by our prior notions, and and try to make even the clearest explanation make sense within that context. A diagram does a lot to cut through the old cobwebs.


I have a couple of concerns about the plan....

--The first is that it relies on a rather precise fit of the tapered hole for the rectangular pad. Too small, and it's insecure, too big and it will pop through.
--The second is that any inadvertent rotation of the bevor will allow the rectangular pad to come out of its internal seat in the helmet (like the way a screw driver pops out of Philips screw heads).

On the other hand, your idea does get more "mileage" out of that screw than mine does. The screw is a sort of sticking point in my interpretation; which would work just as well with two rectangular pads.

Thanks for taking the time to make up the sketch, and fix the link!

Now all of you make me want to make an articulated pivoting bevor. Isn't making my life any easier, you know?

Bwah ha ha! My evil plan has taken root!

Mac

[Sky]

Lol, 5 minutes is a big sacrifice, let me tell ya. As I said before, I doubt this is how it worked, but it's possible, so I wanted to make sure we included it as a possibility.

As a side note - having never built a close Sallet (or close helm/armet) with a pivoting gorget, any recommendations besides that it should be on an inclined plane? (I.e. should match the C1-C2 pivot plane)

[Mac]

Lol, 5 minutes is a big sacrifice, let me tell ya.

Oh, you're being too modest. You said that you had to get out of bed and everything.

As a side note - having never built a close Sallet (or close helm/armet) with a pivoting gorget, any recommendations besides that it should be on an inclined plane? (I.e. should match the C1-C2 pivot plane)

Like for all projects, I recommend that you start out with full sized sketches over accurate body tracings.

There are a couple of tricky bits...
--getting the neck of the bevor in the right place. It needs to be high enough to give you room for the neck lames.
--getting the angle of the neck right. This sets the angle of the neck lames a well as establishing their height at the sides. This is really a subset of the first point.
--making the neck lames fall correctly. In the neutral head position, the neck lames should be slightly compressed. This gives you some room to tip your head back without lifting the terminal lame off the breastplate. It's the same as in armet wrappers.
--establishing the correct geometry for the interaction of the "arms" of the bevor and the skull. The arms will pass from the outside of the helmet skull to the inside at a pair of slots. The area of the skull above the slots must be shaped to allow the bevor to pivot. This is just like a close helmet. The area below the slots must clear the arms to let them move. As the slot happens at the place where the skull starts to flare out, this is pretty easy.

Mac

[Sky]

Excellent! I'm putting aside some time to make myself a lid (read: piggybacking on a couple of commissions and making a half-dozen sallets, one of which just happens to be for me), and I've been wanting to try a pivoting bevor on an articulating gorget. I just worry I'll get frustrated if I'm taking too much time on a project that isn't making me any money.

[Tom B.]

Mac,

I have stumbled across an print form an engraving that is supposed show the armour from your original post (A352 in Vienna).



This image is from the Met's 1603 copy of Archduke Ferdinand II's catalogue of the Armoury of Heroes he assembled in Ambras Castle

[Mac]

[quote="Tom B."]Mac,

I have stumbled across an print form an engraving that is supposed show the armour from your original post (A352 in Vienna).



This image is from the Met's 1603 copy of Archduke Ferdinand II's catalogue of the Armoury of Heroes he assembled in Ambras Castle[/quot]

Thanks, Tom!

It looks like those parts have been together for quite a while.

Mac

[Mac]

So... this just came across my Pinterest feed, and it sort of makes the brows furrow. This is Goll # 4146





So far as I can tell, it's not the same bevor as the one in Philly, but it's very similar. Unfortunately, the Goll thesis pics do not give us a veiw of the other side, so we don't know it has a threaded post or not.

Does anyone know anything about this one?

Mac

[Tom B.]

If we go along with the notion that the image from the Thun Skizzenbuch that I posted earlier shows a bevor with a turner. Maybe we should take another look at the odd piece above & right of the bevor on the opposing leaf.
Is it possible that this is the back of the bevor?
Maybe that that what the seemingly stray gold line connecting it to the bevor indicates.

[Mac]

If we go along with the notion that the image from the Thun Skizzenbuch that I posted earlier shows a bevor with a turner. Maybe we should take another look at the odd piece above & right of the bevor on the opposing leaf.
Is it possible that this is the back of the bevor?
Maybe that that what the seemingly stray gold line connecting it to the bevor indicates.

While it's good to thing out of the box, I'm not sure I'm onboard with this interpretation. I think we can see enough of this bevor to be pretty sure that the bib plates do not have corresponding back. The other thing is the scale of the "half-ring-mystery-object". The artist is pretty good about keeping objects more or less to scale; and if that's true here as well, then the is too small to be the back of the bevor.

It would have been good to have both an identification of the "h-r-m-o", and another rotating bevor in one fell swoop.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Check out this example!

Only info I have so far is this: Dated 1475-1500, place: Österhaninge

[Tom B.]

Some more images


about 1500, Uppland, Tillinge




1450-75, Uppland, Värmdö

[Tom B.]

Very close review of all of the images of both Goll#4146 (the one Mac just posted) and Goll #3201 (bevor from Philly) confirms that they are different objects.
The resemblance is very remarkable but they are definitely different items.

So... this just came across my Pinterest feed, and it sort of makes the brows furrow. This is Goll # 4146





So far as I can tell, it's not the same bevor as the one in Philly, but it's very similar. Unfortunately, the Goll thesis pics do not give us a veiw of the other side, so we don't know it has a threaded post or not.

Does anyone know anything about this one?

Mac

[Mac]

Very close review of all of the images of both Goll#4146 (the one Mac just posted) and Goll #3201 (bevor from Philly) confirms that they are different objects.
The resemblance is very remarkable but they are definitely different items.

It's hard to know that to make of it, isn't it? The most obvious difference is that this one has a square pad, where the one in Philly has a rectangle. The number and disposition of the rivets is the same, as is the "feel" of the hems.

This might mean that one is a copy of the other, or that they are both bogus, or that they are two examples of a thing that was.... "a thing".

Having examined the one in Philly, I am pretty confident that it is authentic. That's only an expert-ish opinion, but I think I'm in good company.

It may be important that the helmet associated with the non-Philly-bevor has anomalous holes in a place where one could imagine something having been riveted in the past. Perhaps there used to be some sort of "adapt or plates" riveted to this otherwise normal sallet to serve as mounting locations for the bevor. Again, a view of the other side would be very useful.

Mac

[Tom B.]

It is also worth noting, as pointed out in an old thread, that Goll# 3037 has the same over all form.
It is missing the odd brackets and the studs.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

The only way these things make sense to me is with an articulated gorget. It might only be the front, however; Tom has this thing on one of his boards, and it provoked me to speculate if such a thing might be the ancestor of the classic 16th century gorget.

gorget hybrid cr.jpg (62.97 KiB) Viewed 4065 times

[Mac]

It is also worth noting, as pointed out in an old thread, that Goll# 3037 has the same over all form.
It is missing the odd brackets and the studs.

That isvery similar. I can't see any sign of the rivet holes for missing brackets, though. What old thread was that in? I didn't find it when I searched with 3037.

Mac

[Mac]

The only way these things make sense to me is with an articulated gorget. It might only be the front, however; Tom has this thing on one of his boards, and it provoked me to speculate if such a thing might be the ancestor of the classic 16th century gorget.

gorget hybrid cr.jpg

The rotating bevor probably needs an articulated gorget, or at least a complete upper ring with that mail attached to it.

On the other hand, articulated gorgets seem a to come in a lot earlier than we expect. I've been collecting 15th C articulated gorgets here. In most examples, it's not clear whether they have corresponding backs, but I don't remember there being any that preclude them.

Mac

[John Vernier]

It is also worth noting, as pointed out in an old thread, that Goll# 3037 has the same over all form.
It is missing the odd brackets and the studs.

That isvery similar. I can't see any sign of the rivet holes for missing brackets, though. What old thread was that in? I didn't find it when I searched with 3037.

Mac

This is an ex-Klingbeil armor I think. It is in Embleton's The Medieval Soldier. I'm pretty sure the posted photo is a blow-up of the picture in the book.

[Tom B.]

This is an ex-Klingbeil armor I think. It is in Embleton's The Medieval Soldier. I'm pretty sure the posted photo is a blow-up of the picture in the book.

Correct on both counts

That isvery similar. I can't see any sign of the rivet holes for missing brackets, though. What old thread was that in? I didn't find it when I searched with 3037.

Mac

Maybe here on Page 2 of my Goll's Thesis Topic #4: Interesting New (to you) Objects thread saddly many of the image links are now broken.

[Mac]

We now have some different views of this bevor. Tom Biliter has recently taken more pics and posted them on Face Book here.

In light of these pics, I have made new sketches of the bevor. The main difference is in the shape of the plate in back. It continues the line of the upper edge of the bevor. This is a sort of a surprise. This plate seems to have a narrow hem which is turned to the inside.



The right side view shows the spring catch and its release button. The spring is secures by two rivets. There is a lining strip in the back plate, which stops short of the spring mount on one side and the hinge on the other.



Another feature which I had not noticed before is that the triangular hem on the falling plate stops short of the sides of the bevor. This is probably to make room for the bevor to fit within the facial opening of the helmet. This big hem seems also to be turned to the inside.

Mac

[Rene K.]

Very cool inside-views, tom made.
The collapsing problem is what i think about the whole time. Sadly i have to much to do, but i will try out another rotating bevor in this style, when i finished the bunch ob work i must get finished.
A visit in Vieanna would also be a good idea for Summer. Maybe it is possible to get some pictures without the helmet on when i can get a date with the curator.

[Mac]

Very cool inside-views, tom made.

I can barely say how happy I was to see them!

The collapsing problem is what i think about the whole time. Sadly i have to much to do, but i will try out another rotating bevor in this style, when i finished the bunch ob work i must get finished.

Right... Gravity pulling everything down, and nothing but leather to push it back up. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

A visit in Vieanna would also be a good idea for Summer. Maybe it is possible to get some pictures without the helmet on when i can get a date with the curator.

That would be great!

Mac

[Rene K.]

Now my own suit and helmet is in a wareable status, i will try to start with changing parts and a sallet with rotating bevor for try out its benefits and function.
I noticed that a well shaped collar with a thin springy leathering is standing by itself, filling it with your body and textile garment, so i'm shure the bevor will not falling down by its weight.
But we will see

[Mac]

Now my own suit and helmet is in a wareable status, i will try to start with changing parts and a sallet with rotating bevor for try out its benefits and function.
I noticed that a well shaped collar with a thin springy leathering is standing by itself, filling it with your body and textile garment, so i'm shure the bevor will not falling down by its weight.
But we will see

Excellent! Let's see some pictures!

Mac

[Tom B.]

Now my own suit and helmet is in a wareable status, i will try to start with changing parts and a sallet with rotating bevor for try out its benefits and function.
I noticed that a well shaped collar with a thin springy leathering is standing by itself, filling it with your body and textile garment, so i'm shure the bevor will not falling down by its weight.
But we will see

Is this the armour you will be making the sallet with rotating bevor for?

[Rene K.]

Now my own suit and helmet is in a wareable status, i will try to start with changing parts and a sallet with rotating bevor for try out its benefits and function.
I noticed that a well shaped collar with a thin springy leathering is standing by itself, filling it with your body and textile garment, so i'm shure the bevor will not falling down by its weight.
But we will see

Is this the armour you will be making the sallet with rotating bevor for?

Yes Sir ;